<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Kheel: The subways could be free, but&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/</link>
	<description>A New York City Subway Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 22:14:42 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" />
	<item>
		<title>By: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#187; Fare hikes, service cuts could lead to more gridlock</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-57411</link>
		<dc:creator>Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#187; Fare hikes, service cuts could lead to more gridlock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-57411</guid>
		<description>[...] from the trials and travails of bumper-to-bumper crosstown traffic. To that end, the people of the Kheel plan, the proposal that called for a high congestion fee and free subways, believe that the Doomsday [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] from the trials and travails of bumper-to-bumper crosstown traffic. To that end, the people of the Kheel plan, the proposal that called for a high congestion fee and free subways, believe that the Doomsday [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Kheel Plan 2: Electric Boogaloo</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-36691</link>
		<dc:creator>Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Kheel Plan 2: Electric Boogaloo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-36691</guid>
		<description>[...] free while implementing a high congestion fee and delivering all the revenue to the MTA. When I first wrote about Kheel&#8217;s plan in January, it generated 20 comments worth of discussion, and it still stands as something of a Holy Grail for [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] free while implementing a high congestion fee and delivering all the revenue to the MTA. When I first wrote about Kheel&#8217;s plan in January, it generated 20 comments worth of discussion, and it still stands as something of a Holy Grail for [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; Blogging the NYC Subways &#187; Blog Archive &#187; MTA has hundreds of millions of reasons to support congestion pricing plan</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-22170</link>
		<dc:creator>Second Ave. Sagas &#124; Blogging the NYC Subways &#187; Blog Archive &#187; MTA has hundreds of millions of reasons to support congestion pricing plan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 05:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-22170</guid>
		<description>[...] could do win $491 million a year, and they all know the MTA needs that money. While this plan is a far cry from Ted Kheel&#8217;s fantastic plan, it&#8217;s a great start. Now, let&#8217;s just hope the City Council agrees. Maybe this bad week [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] could do win $491 million a year, and they all know the MTA needs that money. While this plan is a far cry from Ted Kheel&#8217;s fantastic plan, it&#8217;s a great start. Now, let&#8217;s just hope the City Council agrees. Maybe this bad week [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Charles Komanoff</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-21463</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Komanoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-21463</guid>
		<description>As lead author of the Kheel Report, I want to thank Benjamin Kabak for his scintillating article summarizing the report and the free-transit plan it conveys. You said it better than we did!

My only disagreement is with BK&#039;s pessimism. We think the plan can go the distance. Stay tuned (to Ted Kheel&#039;s Web site, www.nnyn.org/kheelplan) as we develop strategies for bringing millions of New Yorkers on-board ... with your help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As lead author of the Kheel Report, I want to thank Benjamin Kabak for his scintillating article summarizing the report and the free-transit plan it conveys. You said it better than we did!</p>
<p>My only disagreement is with BK&#8217;s pessimism. We think the plan can go the distance. Stay tuned (to Ted Kheel&#8217;s Web site, <a href="http://www.nnyn.org/kheelplan" rel="nofollow">http://www.nnyn.org/kheelplan</a>) as we develop strategies for bringing millions of New Yorkers on-board &#8230; with your help.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-21280</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-21280</guid>
		<description>Oh, and I do own a car.  And I&#039;m not rich, but I recognize that there are many costs to driving a car, and I&#039;m willing to pay them if I choose to drive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and I do own a car.  And I&#8217;m not rich, but I recognize that there are many costs to driving a car, and I&#8217;m willing to pay them if I choose to drive.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-21257</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-21257</guid>
		<description>To the reactionary paulb:

No one is banning the ownership of cars.  

What is proposed is that the costs of driving in the city more accurately reflect the costs to society.

Driving a car is a privilege, not a right, a fact recognized by literally every court in the United States.  It is both fair and appropriate that the costs to society of automobile traffic be born by those who choose to drive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the reactionary paulb:</p>
<p>No one is banning the ownership of cars.  </p>
<p>What is proposed is that the costs of driving in the city more accurately reflect the costs to society.</p>
<p>Driving a car is a privilege, not a right, a fact recognized by literally every court in the United States.  It is both fair and appropriate that the costs to society of automobile traffic be born by those who choose to drive.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cap'n Transit</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-20984</link>
		<dc:creator>Cap'n Transit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-20984</guid>
		<description>I want to expand on some of the points Alon makes.  I don&#039;t know if Kheel has owned a car, but I have, and I honestly didn&#039;t feel that the increased mobility was worth dealing with congestion, parking, gas, tolls, insurance, mechanics, loans, bureaucracy, etc.  And any illusion that cars offered an absolute increase in mobility was dashed the first time I tried to drive a rental truck across 14th Street.  I would have gladly abandoned the truck for the increased mobility of the L train, or even my own two feet, but I needed it to move my worldly possessions across town.

Similarly, the idea that cars are always useful for visiting relatives evaporated when a relative drove us to visit the in-laws on Thanksgiving, and we proceeded to sit in unmoving traffic on the Hutch for twenty minutes, then creep along the Merritt at a pace far inferior to that of the New Haven line.

I could go on about the beach and the bagels, but I think you get the point.  Cars represent an &quot;amenity&quot; only because the government has sunk billions of dollars more into road infrastructure than into transit infrastructure.  If it were the other way around, you&#039;d probably be griping against anyone who wanted to defund a train line for decreasing people&#039;s mobility.  But you&#039;d have a much better case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to expand on some of the points Alon makes.  I don&#8217;t know if Kheel has owned a car, but I have, and I honestly didn&#8217;t feel that the increased mobility was worth dealing with congestion, parking, gas, tolls, insurance, mechanics, loans, bureaucracy, etc.  And any illusion that cars offered an absolute increase in mobility was dashed the first time I tried to drive a rental truck across 14th Street.  I would have gladly abandoned the truck for the increased mobility of the L train, or even my own two feet, but I needed it to move my worldly possessions across town.</p>
<p>Similarly, the idea that cars are always useful for visiting relatives evaporated when a relative drove us to visit the in-laws on Thanksgiving, and we proceeded to sit in unmoving traffic on the Hutch for twenty minutes, then creep along the Merritt at a pace far inferior to that of the New Haven line.</p>
<p>I could go on about the beach and the bagels, but I think you get the point.  Cars represent an &#8220;amenity&#8221; only because the government has sunk billions of dollars more into road infrastructure than into transit infrastructure.  If it were the other way around, you&#8217;d probably be griping against anyone who wanted to defund a train line for decreasing people&#8217;s mobility.  But you&#8217;d have a much better case.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-20950</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-20950</guid>
		<description>In Japan they have mobility, too. They just travel by rail, because the government made a decision to invest in world-class rail transit instead of in highway infrastructure.

And no, most poor New Yorkers don&#039;t own cars. Why would they? The subway&#039;s faster, and finding parking is difficult. All those cars you say you see may or may not be owned by residents; even if they are, there are many more residents than cars.

For example, on my Upper Manhattan block there are parked cars in most spaces, but there&#039;s only enough room for maybe two hundred cars around a full block, compared with about one thousand residents. And many of those cars aren&#039;t owned by residents; parking is only metered on avenues, so most parking spaces are free, making this area a good park and ride for Upstaters who don&#039;t like getting stuck in the traffic jams further downtown.

One thing car-free areas are good at is accommodating density. In car-friendlier cities, it&#039;s impossible to get far beyond 2,000 people per square kilometer, so the working class lives either in ghettos, or in far-flung exurbs with one-hour car commutes. In New York, accommodating five-figure densities is trivial. So the very poor tend to live in Harlem, Chinatown, the South Bronx, or Eastern Brooklyn, which are reasonably close to the center; the working class lives all over, sometimes in areas that are a spit&#039;s distance from Midtown, like Hell&#039;s Kitchen and Long Island City. Overall it&#039;s a better scheme than what they have in Los Angeles or Washington.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Japan they have mobility, too. They just travel by rail, because the government made a decision to invest in world-class rail transit instead of in highway infrastructure.</p>
<p>And no, most poor New Yorkers don&#8217;t own cars. Why would they? The subway&#8217;s faster, and finding parking is difficult. All those cars you say you see may or may not be owned by residents; even if they are, there are many more residents than cars.</p>
<p>For example, on my Upper Manhattan block there are parked cars in most spaces, but there&#8217;s only enough room for maybe two hundred cars around a full block, compared with about one thousand residents. And many of those cars aren&#8217;t owned by residents; parking is only metered on avenues, so most parking spaces are free, making this area a good park and ride for Upstaters who don&#8217;t like getting stuck in the traffic jams further downtown.</p>
<p>One thing car-free areas are good at is accommodating density. In car-friendlier cities, it&#8217;s impossible to get far beyond 2,000 people per square kilometer, so the working class lives either in ghettos, or in far-flung exurbs with one-hour car commutes. In New York, accommodating five-figure densities is trivial. So the very poor tend to live in Harlem, Chinatown, the South Bronx, or Eastern Brooklyn, which are reasonably close to the center; the working class lives all over, sometimes in areas that are a spit&#8217;s distance from Midtown, like Hell&#8217;s Kitchen and Long Island City. Overall it&#8217;s a better scheme than what they have in Los Angeles or Washington.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: paulb</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-20918</link>
		<dc:creator>paulb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-20918</guid>
		<description>I wonder if Kheel owns a car, or ever has owned a car.

Mobility is a beautiful thing, and car ownership brings it to, for lack of a better phrase, &quot;the common man.&quot; I have owned a car, though I don&#039;t now, and I was like any other New Yorker,  enjoying owning it for reasons that I think are very good ones: to visit relatives who may live in different parts of the tristate area, to help out other relatives who may be elderly and need the aid, to drive to the beach with friends in the summer, to get my bike to far Jersey for a daytrip, to pick up a few cabinets at Home Depot, do a bunch of errands, pick up bagels and a newspaper, make an impulse decision to try a new restaurant in a neighborhood I don&#039;t know very well. In my case, I also just like cars. I don&#039;t see why the most narrow minded type of pseudo-Utopian thinker should consider himself qualified to demand that living in New York means this world-enlarging mobility is forbidden. Don&#039;t tell me that as a New Yorker I&#039;m not American and have to live in my little box without one of the amenities and world-changing (for the better) inventions of modern life. Got a grudge against my hifi and vacuum cleaner? Do they have to go too, those noisy things that you can hear through the wall, and they use all that energy.

Or maybe that&#039;s not what Kheel is saying, I don&#039;t know him. Once a person has purchased a car and has shouldered all the hefty expenses that go with it, it often seems logical to use the car more. I mean, if it&#039;s just sitting there parked all the time, what is the point? That&#039;s how a lot of cars end up being used for daily commuters. 

I am very, very angry over the tone and content of Mr. Kabek&#039;s post. My &quot;populist agenda&quot; isn&#039;t phony at all. Lower and middle income New Yorkers do own cars. I rode my bike through the central and north Bronx just a couple weeks ago, to see my old neighborhoods again. Those are low income neighborhoods, many of them, and cars are parked along every curb--same as they used to be when I was growing up. Some of them pretty nice cars, too. The tenants in those buildings own them for perfectly reasonable purposes.

If daily auto commuting is the congestion problem then play the game straight. Put the cards on the table in front of New Yorkers and see if you can bring them into the game with a solution, explaining exactly what the problem is, why it&#039;s a problem, why they should be worried about it, and how in concrete terms your proposal&#039;s drawbacks, including the intangible ones, will be outweighed by the benefits. But if your real agenda is an &quot;auto free New York,&quot; as I think it is, then I and several million other New Yorkers will simply instruct you to stick some heavy stones in your pockets and jump off the Staten Island ferry. Go away.

An auto free New York may be Mr. Kabak&#039;s idea of an orderly paradise of primary colors and smiling happy people, like some 1950s technicolor travelog about Sweden. But for most it&#039;s an idea that if implemented would strand them in the typically messy web of life tasks and responsibilities and the pursuit of a few simple quotidian pleasures. It will never happen, as Mr. Kabak says, but the reason is, the idea is a load of crap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if Kheel owns a car, or ever has owned a car.</p>
<p>Mobility is a beautiful thing, and car ownership brings it to, for lack of a better phrase, &#8220;the common man.&#8221; I have owned a car, though I don&#8217;t now, and I was like any other New Yorker,  enjoying owning it for reasons that I think are very good ones: to visit relatives who may live in different parts of the tristate area, to help out other relatives who may be elderly and need the aid, to drive to the beach with friends in the summer, to get my bike to far Jersey for a daytrip, to pick up a few cabinets at Home Depot, do a bunch of errands, pick up bagels and a newspaper, make an impulse decision to try a new restaurant in a neighborhood I don&#8217;t know very well. In my case, I also just like cars. I don&#8217;t see why the most narrow minded type of pseudo-Utopian thinker should consider himself qualified to demand that living in New York means this world-enlarging mobility is forbidden. Don&#8217;t tell me that as a New Yorker I&#8217;m not American and have to live in my little box without one of the amenities and world-changing (for the better) inventions of modern life. Got a grudge against my hifi and vacuum cleaner? Do they have to go too, those noisy things that you can hear through the wall, and they use all that energy.</p>
<p>Or maybe that&#8217;s not what Kheel is saying, I don&#8217;t know him. Once a person has purchased a car and has shouldered all the hefty expenses that go with it, it often seems logical to use the car more. I mean, if it&#8217;s just sitting there parked all the time, what is the point? That&#8217;s how a lot of cars end up being used for daily commuters. </p>
<p>I am very, very angry over the tone and content of Mr. Kabek&#8217;s post. My &#8220;populist agenda&#8221; isn&#8217;t phony at all. Lower and middle income New Yorkers do own cars. I rode my bike through the central and north Bronx just a couple weeks ago, to see my old neighborhoods again. Those are low income neighborhoods, many of them, and cars are parked along every curb&#8211;same as they used to be when I was growing up. Some of them pretty nice cars, too. The tenants in those buildings own them for perfectly reasonable purposes.</p>
<p>If daily auto commuting is the congestion problem then play the game straight. Put the cards on the table in front of New Yorkers and see if you can bring them into the game with a solution, explaining exactly what the problem is, why it&#8217;s a problem, why they should be worried about it, and how in concrete terms your proposal&#8217;s drawbacks, including the intangible ones, will be outweighed by the benefits. But if your real agenda is an &#8220;auto free New York,&#8221; as I think it is, then I and several million other New Yorkers will simply instruct you to stick some heavy stones in your pockets and jump off the Staten Island ferry. Go away.</p>
<p>An auto free New York may be Mr. Kabak&#8217;s idea of an orderly paradise of primary colors and smiling happy people, like some 1950s technicolor travelog about Sweden. But for most it&#8217;s an idea that if implemented would strand them in the typically messy web of life tasks and responsibilities and the pursuit of a few simple quotidian pleasures. It will never happen, as Mr. Kabak says, but the reason is, the idea is a load of crap.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-20860</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/25/kheel-the-subways-could-be-free-but/#comment-20860</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m still skeptical. The numbers the study gives are unsourced; the only one that comes with a reference sends me to a metastudy from the 1970s. With academic studies, I know that at least the references pan out, because that&#039;s the first thing peer review would&#039;ve checked; it doesn&#039;t filter out everything that&#039;s plain wrong, but manages to stop the major bullshit. With things like this, there&#039;s no guarantee. Who&#039;s to say that said metastudy enjoys sound reputation among urban planners? Who&#039;s to say a single unsourced number in the Kheel study is true? For example, PlaNYC says its scheme will raise $400 million per year; how can the Kheel study get a number six times as high just from congestion fees, when these fees are at most double those Bloomberg wants?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still skeptical. The numbers the study gives are unsourced; the only one that comes with a reference sends me to a metastudy from the 1970s. With academic studies, I know that at least the references pan out, because that&#8217;s the first thing peer review would&#8217;ve checked; it doesn&#8217;t filter out everything that&#8217;s plain wrong, but manages to stop the major bullshit. With things like this, there&#8217;s no guarantee. Who&#8217;s to say that said metastudy enjoys sound reputation among urban planners? Who&#8217;s to say a single unsourced number in the Kheel study is true? For example, PlaNYC says its scheme will raise $400 million per year; how can the Kheel study get a number six times as high just from congestion fees, when these fees are at most double those Bloomberg wants?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
