Comments on: Second Ave. Subway third track a victim of inflation http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/ A New York City Subway Blog Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:29:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Kevin Li http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-36110 Kevin Li Fri, 23 May 2008 04:16:52 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-36110 I'm looking at the plans and all I see are lots of unnecessary double crossovers. Besides the ones at 125th, 96th, and Hanover Square, I don't see much use for the other double crossovers. The three-track station at 72nd Street was a good idea; I can see Q trains merging into the line from broadway using the center track very frequently based on my experience with other trains (like the ones heading for Dekalb Avenue or Atlantic-Pacific Street). If they're not making the whole line with 4 tracks, they could at least make it 3 tracked. In my opinion, 3 lines should be the minimum necessary for any line to be able to have normal service in case of any single track failure (mechanical problems, congestion, delays, etc). I’m looking at the plans and all I see are lots of unnecessary double crossovers. Besides the ones at 125th, 96th, and Hanover Square, I don’t see much use for the other double crossovers. The three-track station at 72nd Street was a good idea; I can see Q trains merging into the line from broadway using the center track very frequently based on my experience with other trains (like the ones heading for Dekalb Avenue or Atlantic-Pacific Street).

If they’re not making the whole line with 4 tracks, they could at least make it 3 tracked. In my opinion, 3 lines should be the minimum necessary for any line to be able to have normal service in case of any single track failure (mechanical problems, congestion, delays, etc).

]]> By: Sheldn http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-28226 Sheldn Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:42:06 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-28226 Third track? What third track? I know that I'm not saying anything alotgether new - but based on the published plans, the second avenue subway that's been promised is 2 tracks from end to end except for a few blocks from 72 to 63 to expedite having downtown service split between continuing down second avenue and turning off onto 63rd. Also, for a few feet down 2nd Avenue from 63rd where the tracks from Queens will connect. I'm worried about the project being declared out of money when phase I ends, and that with unused tunneling uptown with aome basic station construction to fill in. Third track? What third track? I know that I’m not saying anything alotgether new - but based on the published plans, the second avenue subway that’s been promised is 2 tracks from end to end except for a few blocks from 72 to 63 to expedite having downtown service split between continuing down second avenue and turning off onto 63rd. Also, for a few feet down 2nd Avenue from 63rd where the tracks from Queens will connect. I’m worried about the project being declared out of money when phase I ends, and that with unused tunneling uptown with aome basic station construction to fill in.

]]> By: peter knox http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-22164 peter knox Fri, 01 Feb 2008 04:44:38 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-22164 Remember that the MTA has not yet begun building the 2nd Avenue Subway. All they have done for the last 9 months is make a mess of the west side of the street while they claim to be relocating sewer, cable, phone lines, etc. They said they would be finished by now with work on the west side of the street; they are not even close to being finished. And to watch these guys at work! This mega public works project has fewer men working on it at any one time than you find on 86th St. putting up those new apartment buildings. And some of the guys who do "work" on the site do nothing but eat Dunkin Donuts and laugh with their buddies. Who could ever have believed that they were going to finish this project by 2013? They extended the target date to 2014 before they even put one shovel in the ground. We are now almost ten months into the project, and they are still preparing to build the subway. So what sucker really thinks that in the next six years the MTA will complete moving all these pipes and cables on the west side of 2nd; go to the east side and move all those pipes and cables: build a hole big enough to put in the enormous boring machine; build the actual tracks; build stations at 96th, 86th, 72nd and 66th? Can't happen. No possibility. It would take them 3, 4 years to build one station alone. The whole thing (and remember the "whole thing" is not the 2nd Avenue Subway--no, it is a little bitty track that will take Upper Siders 30 blocks) can't be completed in ten years. And all the lies about the cost!! The MTA said the project would cost 3.8 billion back in 2003. And one still sees that number reported in the papers! Can't be true. The MTA has only awarded one small contract so far, for something around maybe 337 million and that was 17 million or so over budget. Does anyone really think the rest of the project is going to cost only 3.4 billion? If construction prices have been going up on average about 12 to 15 milliion a month, as is often reported in the papers, then the project must now cost about 4.5 billion. The true number is probably closer to 5 billion. 5 billion at least, and for 30 blocks! We will soon hear about how far behind schedule and over budget the 2nd Avenue Subway is. The MTA has behaved criminally, and their accomplices have been the dishonest politicans and reporters who have covered up this revolting violation of the public trust. Remember that the MTA has not yet begun building the 2nd Avenue Subway. All they have done for the last 9 months is make a mess of the west side of the street while they claim to be relocating sewer, cable, phone lines, etc. They said they would be finished by now with work on the west side of the street; they are not even close to being finished. And to watch these guys at work! This mega public works project has fewer men working on it at any one time than you find on 86th St. putting up those new apartment buildings. And some of the guys who do “work” on the site do nothing but eat Dunkin Donuts and laugh with their buddies. Who could ever have believed that they were going to finish this project by 2013? They extended the target date to 2014 before they even put one shovel in the ground. We are now almost ten months into the project, and they are still preparing to build the subway. So what sucker really thinks that in the next six years the MTA will complete moving all these pipes and cables on the west side of 2nd; go to the east side and move all those pipes and cables: build a hole big enough to put in the enormous boring machine; build the actual tracks; build stations at 96th, 86th, 72nd and 66th? Can’t happen. No possibility. It would take them 3, 4 years to build one station alone. The whole thing (and remember the “whole thing” is not the 2nd Avenue Subway–no, it is a little bitty track that will take Upper Siders 30 blocks) can’t be completed in ten years. And all the lies about the cost!! The MTA said the project would cost 3.8 billion back in 2003. And one still sees that number reported in the papers! Can’t be true. The MTA has only awarded one small contract so far, for something around maybe 337 million and that was 17 million or so over budget. Does anyone really think the rest of the project is going to cost only 3.4 billion? If construction prices have been going up on average about 12 to 15 milliion a month, as is often reported in the papers, then the project must now cost about 4.5 billion. The true number is probably closer to 5 billion. 5 billion at least, and for 30 blocks! We will soon hear about how far behind schedule and over budget the 2nd Avenue Subway is. The MTA has behaved criminally, and their accomplices have been the dishonest politicans and reporters who have covered up this revolting violation of the public trust.

]]> By: The Secret Conductor http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-22033 The Secret Conductor Thu, 31 Jan 2008 06:47:30 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-22033 Considering the fact the the whole train line is 12 stop in total, i think it would not be a good idea for an express track. You will end up missing all the people from 125 to 72 street and forcing them to get on the local just to switch at 72 fir the Q (I assume that the Q would be the express train). Considering what happens on the L train almost every 2 days or so, it would be very VERY wise to have a 3rd track in a couple of places for work -arounds and re-routes. This is what I think it should be considering my experience on the L line (the L line on has 2 tracks and if anything happens ANYWHERE the whole line experiences delays and may even get shut down): 72 street: 4 tracks - 2 for the T and 2 for the Q. This way both trains can be in the station and one does not have to wait behind the other as it crosses in front of each other... at least have 3 tracks here. 86 street - 2 tracks 96 - 3 tracks for run-arounds 106 and 116 streets- 2 tracks 125 street terminal - 3 tracks (makes it easier for turning trains around especially since their will be 2 train lines terminating there) Well, that's my plan. Considering the fact the the whole train line is 12 stop in total, i think it would not be a good idea for an express track. You will end up missing all the people from 125 to 72 street and forcing them to get on the local just to switch at 72 fir the Q (I assume that the Q would be the express train).

Considering what happens on the L train almost every 2 days or so, it would be very VERY wise to have a 3rd track in a couple of places for work -arounds and re-routes.

This is what I think it should be considering my experience on the L line (the L line on has 2 tracks and if anything happens ANYWHERE the whole line experiences delays and may even get shut down):

72 street: 4 tracks - 2 for the T and 2 for the Q. This way both trains can be in the station and one does not have to wait behind the other as it crosses in front of each other… at least have 3 tracks here.

86 street - 2 tracks
96 - 3 tracks for run-arounds
106 and 116 streets- 2 tracks

125 street terminal - 3 tracks (makes it easier for turning trains around especially since their will be 2 train lines terminating there)

Well, that’s my plan.

]]> By: Cap'n Transit http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-22021 Cap'n Transit Thu, 31 Jan 2008 04:59:06 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-22021 How much could they save if they made it cut-and-cover instead of bored tunnels? How much could they save if they made it cut-and-cover instead of bored tunnels?

]]> By: Marc Shepherd http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-21962 Marc Shepherd Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:30:23 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-21962 The third track in question is actually just a very short segment around 72nd Street. This <I>is</i> in the FEIS. It is intended to provide some routing flexibility, but it is far too short to offer any kind of express service. At no stage of the current project has there ever been a third or fourth track (or the provision for them) in the design. I believe the original 1920s design was supposed to have been a four-track subway, but since the 1960s it has been two tracks all the way. I don't think express service could ever be practical unless the design allowed for it from the start, as was done along Sixth Avenue. It would be too difficult and expensive to retrofit. If the space wasn't provided for it in advance, it would probably be easier to just build a brand new subway along some other corridor. I also think that if they believed express service would one day be a offered, the local stations ought to be closer together. Several of the SAS station-to-station distances are considerably longer than usual. South of 96th Street, I believe the longest gap in Manhattan today is 13 blocks, from 72nd Street to 59th Street along the Eighth Avenue Line. The SAS design has four station-station gaps as long or longer than that. The third track in question is actually just a very short segment around 72nd Street. This is in the FEIS. It is intended to provide some routing flexibility, but it is far too short to offer any kind of express service.

At no stage of the current project has there ever been a third or fourth track (or the provision for them) in the design. I believe the original 1920s design was supposed to have been a four-track subway, but since the 1960s it has been two tracks all the way.

I don’t think express service could ever be practical unless the design allowed for it from the start, as was done along Sixth Avenue. It would be too difficult and expensive to retrofit. If the space wasn’t provided for it in advance, it would probably be easier to just build a brand new subway along some other corridor.

I also think that if they believed express service would one day be a offered, the local stations ought to be closer together. Several of the SAS station-to-station distances are considerably longer than usual. South of 96th Street, I believe the longest gap in Manhattan today is 13 blocks, from 72nd Street to 59th Street along the Eighth Avenue Line. The SAS design has four station-station gaps as long or longer than that.

]]> By: Kid Twist http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-21939 Kid Twist Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:52:03 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-21939 Kevin, the track itself is relatively cheap. At issue is the cost of making the tunnel 50 percent wider so that it can accommodate three tracks instead of two. Kevin, the track itself is relatively cheap. At issue is the cost of making the tunnel 50 percent wider so that it can accommodate three tracks instead of two.

]]> By: ScottE http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-21932 ScottE Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:28:02 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-21932 There is really no new news here. The Daily News links says that a third track "could" be trimmed, and the the FEIS that is linked from the original article (which doesn't include a third track) is dated 2004. I don't know when the thought of a third track was evaluated, but it certainly hasn't been on the drawing board for several years. Also, considering that this project is being done in a phased approach (the first phase only includes three stations along Second Avenue with a connection to the Q at 63rd and Lex, what may happen beyond Phase One - the only one with funding - is anyone's guess. Nagaraja said that they would take 30 days to review the other mega-projects (East Side Access, 7-line extension, and Second Avenue Subway) to find out where cuts could be made. Unless it's positive news (i.e. a transit employee finds a lost, winning Powerball ticket on the floor of the N train) I really don't expect to hear anything before those 30 days are up, at least. Having said that --- the price of concrete and steel jumed 91% and 25% over the last four years? Wow! I wouldn't have expected that, but if true, that certainly can explain why the costs have skyrocketed. There is really no new news here. The Daily News links says that a third track “could” be trimmed, and the the FEIS that is linked from the original article (which doesn’t include a third track) is dated 2004. I don’t know when the thought of a third track was evaluated, but it certainly hasn’t been on the drawing board for several years.

Also, considering that this project is being done in a phased approach (the first phase only includes three stations along Second Avenue with a connection to the Q at 63rd and Lex, what may happen beyond Phase One - the only one with funding - is anyone’s guess.

Nagaraja said that they would take 30 days to review the other mega-projects (East Side Access, 7-line extension, and Second Avenue Subway) to find out where cuts could be made. Unless it’s positive news (i.e. a transit employee finds a lost, winning Powerball ticket on the floor of the N train) I really don’t expect to hear anything before those 30 days are up, at least.

Having said that — the price of concrete and steel jumed 91% and 25% over the last four years? Wow! I wouldn’t have expected that, but if true, that certainly can explain why the costs have skyrocketed.

]]> By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-21895 Alon Levy Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:27:26 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-21895 I'm not sure, but I think you have to plan the building for express tracks. 6th Avenue Subway was planned to have express tracks added later; one of the designs for SAS called for construction that would make it easy to later extend it to four tracks, but was rejected since the first two tracks would only include three stops between 125th and Hanover Square. I’m not sure, but I think you have to plan the building for express tracks. 6th Avenue Subway was planned to have express tracks added later; one of the designs for SAS called for construction that would make it easy to later extend it to four tracks, but was rejected since the first two tracks would only include three stops between 125th and Hanover Square.

]]> By: Andrew http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-21892 Andrew Wed, 30 Jan 2008 06:25:31 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/01/29/second-ave-subway-third-track-a-victim-of-inflation/#comment-21892 They could also build an express track under the ones they are building now if there is future demand, much the same way they built the express track on the 6th Ave line from 34th St to W4th decades after the IND had been constructed. They could also build an express track under the ones they are building now if there is future demand, much the same way they built the express track on the 6th Ave line from 34th St to W4th decades after the IND had been constructed.

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