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	<title>Comments on: East River bridge tolls could fund MTA capital program</title>
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	<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/04/22/east-river-bridge-tolls-could-fund-mta-capital-program/</link>
	<description>A New York City Subway Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/04/22/east-river-bridge-tolls-could-fund-mta-capital-program/#comment-57509</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:47:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=808#comment-57509</guid>
		<description>Has anyone read the following... I think that in this recession the bridges should remain toll-free... Why don&#039;t we crack down with quality of life tickets for littering &amp; urinating in public?:


How East River Bridges Stayed Toll-Free Subtitle
New York Times Blog &#124; November 11, 2008 


Author
By Sewell Chan 


On numerous occasions, politicians have tried to reinstitute tolls on the four bridges -- the Brooklyn (completed in 1883), Williamsburg (completed in 1903) and Manhattan and Queensboro (both completed in 1909). After all, the Brooklyn Bridge charged horse-drawn carriages a toll from the time it opened. But by the Depression, the tolls were a thing of the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone read the following&#8230; I think that in this recession the bridges should remain toll-free&#8230; Why don&#8217;t we crack down with quality of life tickets for littering &amp; urinating in public?:</p>
<p>How East River Bridges Stayed Toll-Free Subtitle<br />
New York Times Blog | November 11, 2008 </p>
<p>Author<br />
By Sewell Chan </p>
<p>On numerous occasions, politicians have tried to reinstitute tolls on the four bridges &#8212; the Brooklyn (completed in 1883), Williamsburg (completed in 1903) and Manhattan and Queensboro (both completed in 1909). After all, the Brooklyn Bridge charged horse-drawn carriages a toll from the time it opened. But by the Depression, the tolls were a thing of the past.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/04/22/east-river-bridge-tolls-could-fund-mta-capital-program/#comment-34203</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=808#comment-34203</guid>
		<description>JP: your proposal will substantially increase traffic in East Harlem and Washington Heights. Washington Heights might absorb the increase, but East Harlem has one of the highest asthma incidences in the country, in large part because of all the through traffic.

A better proposal would be to toll all the bridges across East and Harlem Rivers, which would compensate for the added traffic from Triboro Bridge with reduced traffic from the Bronx and Upstate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JP: your proposal will substantially increase traffic in East Harlem and Washington Heights. Washington Heights might absorb the increase, but East Harlem has one of the highest asthma incidences in the country, in large part because of all the through traffic.</p>
<p>A better proposal would be to toll all the bridges across East and Harlem Rivers, which would compensate for the added traffic from Triboro Bridge with reduced traffic from the Bronx and Upstate.</p>
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		<title>By: Cap'n Transit</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/04/22/east-river-bridge-tolls-could-fund-mta-capital-program/#comment-34197</link>
		<dc:creator>Cap'n Transit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 03:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=808#comment-34197</guid>
		<description>Marc, please don&#039;t spread disinformation.  The East River Bridges were all tolled when they were first constructed.  I don&#039;t know where the toll booths were, but they were there.  With the small number of cars that existed back then, they didn&#039;t need very many booths.

The idea was to keep the tolls until the bonds were paid off, but Mayor Gaynor removed them in 1911 in the first bridge pandering.  Later, Bob Moses had the idea of taking out new bonds before the old ones were paid off, using them to pay for new construction projects and keeping the bridge construction authority in place indefinitely.  That&#039;s why the Triboro Bridge and Tunnel Authority is still in existence, as a part of the MTA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc, please don&#8217;t spread disinformation.  The East River Bridges were all tolled when they were first constructed.  I don&#8217;t know where the toll booths were, but they were there.  With the small number of cars that existed back then, they didn&#8217;t need very many booths.</p>
<p>The idea was to keep the tolls until the bonds were paid off, but Mayor Gaynor removed them in 1911 in the first bridge pandering.  Later, Bob Moses had the idea of taking out new bonds before the old ones were paid off, using them to pay for new construction projects and keeping the bridge construction authority in place indefinitely.  That&#8217;s why the Triboro Bridge and Tunnel Authority is still in existence, as a part of the MTA.</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/04/22/east-river-bridge-tolls-could-fund-mta-capital-program/#comment-34169</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=808#comment-34169</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;And who holds title to the East River bridges? If the City owns them and gives them to the MTA, could the MTA then add tolls at will?&lt;/I&gt;

Doing this requires state approval also, but would make sense. What should be done is a swap. The Queensborough, Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Billysburgh to the MTA and the non-CBD crossings to the city. Then make the toll something like $16 on the CBD crossings during peak times. I think this is the fairest system for everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And who holds title to the East River bridges? If the City owns them and gives them to the MTA, could the MTA then add tolls at will?</i></p>
<p>Doing this requires state approval also, but would make sense. What should be done is a swap. The Queensborough, Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Billysburgh to the MTA and the non-CBD crossings to the city. Then make the toll something like $16 on the CBD crossings during peak times. I think this is the fairest system for everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Shepherd</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/04/22/east-river-bridge-tolls-could-fund-mta-capital-program/#comment-34161</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Shepherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=808#comment-34161</guid>
		<description>The four city-owned bridges (Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg &amp; Queensboro) have never been tolled. There is nowhere for cars to queue to pay tolls, because the possibility wasn&#039;t anticipated when these bridges were built. I suspect they&#039;d use the same mechanism that would have been used for congestion pricing, based on cameras, computers and EZPass. Building physical toll booths would most likely be a non-starter.

There is no way to get around the requirement for state legislature approval. Robert Moses needed to go through the legislature, too; he was just a lot more adept at it than anyone around today, especially Mayor Bloomberg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The four city-owned bridges (Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg &amp; Queensboro) have never been tolled. There is nowhere for cars to queue to pay tolls, because the possibility wasn&#8217;t anticipated when these bridges were built. I suspect they&#8217;d use the same mechanism that would have been used for congestion pricing, based on cameras, computers and EZPass. Building physical toll booths would most likely be a non-starter.</p>
<p>There is no way to get around the requirement for state legislature approval. Robert Moses needed to go through the legislature, too; he was just a lot more adept at it than anyone around today, especially Mayor Bloomberg.</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/04/22/east-river-bridge-tolls-could-fund-mta-capital-program/#comment-34152</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:07:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=808#comment-34152</guid>
		<description>The Battery Tunnel uses the Gowanus Expressway as its queue.

I&#039;m pretty sure about that Gary, and the lawyers are too because if the city tried to do it they&#039;d sue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Battery Tunnel uses the Gowanus Expressway as its queue.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure about that Gary, and the lawyers are too because if the city tried to do it they&#8217;d sue.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/04/22/east-river-bridge-tolls-could-fund-mta-capital-program/#comment-34102</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=808#comment-34102</guid>
		<description>It runs on batteries? (rimshot)

There is a toll booth that charges both ways, and it&#039;s stationed on the Brooklyn side.  I live several blocks from it.  The problem is, where would you put them for the bridges?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It runs on batteries? (rimshot)</p>
<p>There is a toll booth that charges both ways, and it&#8217;s stationed on the Brooklyn side.  I live several blocks from it.  The problem is, where would you put them for the bridges?</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/04/22/east-river-bridge-tolls-could-fund-mta-capital-program/#comment-34101</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=808#comment-34101</guid>
		<description>How does the Battery Tunnel work?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does the Battery Tunnel work?</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/04/22/east-river-bridge-tolls-could-fund-mta-capital-program/#comment-34099</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=808#comment-34099</guid>
		<description>JP, are you sure about that?  I understand that once upon a time there were bridge tolls on the East River . . . is that not so?  And if there were, who revoked them, the city or the state?

And who holds title to the East River bridges?  If the City owns them and gives them to the MTA, could the MTA then add tolls at will?

I&#039;m asking these questions because I don&#039;t necessarily know the answers, but if I learned one thing from The Power Broker, it&#039;s that there are surprising ways of getting things done in New York.

Lastly, I find it all pretty ironic.  My favored plan when the CP commission was holding hearings was tolling the Harlem and East River crossings.  And here we are.

PETER - Anything which creates massive queues of cars in Brooklyn is a non-starter . . . there is no place to put the cars.  It has to be a booth-less system or it won&#039;t work.

Katherine, I can assure you that there are plenty of people that commute in using the bridges . . . and that many of them go out of there way to use the bridges and avoid the tunnels, which they have to pay for.  I live in a neighborhood that is impacted by that choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JP, are you sure about that?  I understand that once upon a time there were bridge tolls on the East River . . . is that not so?  And if there were, who revoked them, the city or the state?</p>
<p>And who holds title to the East River bridges?  If the City owns them and gives them to the MTA, could the MTA then add tolls at will?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m asking these questions because I don&#8217;t necessarily know the answers, but if I learned one thing from The Power Broker, it&#8217;s that there are surprising ways of getting things done in New York.</p>
<p>Lastly, I find it all pretty ironic.  My favored plan when the CP commission was holding hearings was tolling the Harlem and East River crossings.  And here we are.</p>
<p>PETER &#8211; Anything which creates massive queues of cars in Brooklyn is a non-starter . . . there is no place to put the cars.  It has to be a booth-less system or it won&#8217;t work.</p>
<p>Katherine, I can assure you that there are plenty of people that commute in using the bridges . . . and that many of them go out of there way to use the bridges and avoid the tunnels, which they have to pay for.  I live in a neighborhood that is impacted by that choice.</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/04/22/east-river-bridge-tolls-could-fund-mta-capital-program/#comment-34093</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:13:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=808#comment-34093</guid>
		<description>The State Constitution doesn&#039;t allow the city to create new fees and taxes with out it passing the legislature. All the city can do is pass a home rule message requesting that the legislature does x.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The State Constitution doesn&#8217;t allow the city to create new fees and taxes with out it passing the legislature. All the city can do is pass a home rule message requesting that the legislature does x.</p>
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