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	<title>Comments on: Dreaming of the Second System: Where the subways should go</title>
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	<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/09/19/dreaming-of-the-second-system-where-the-subways-should-go/</link>
	<description>A New York City Subway Blog</description>
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		<title>By: From the archives: A history of futility for Utica, Nostrand extension plans :: Second Ave. Sagas</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/09/19/dreaming-of-the-second-system-where-the-subways-should-go/#comment-233819</link>
		<dc:creator>From the archives: A history of futility for Utica, Nostrand extension plans :: Second Ave. Sagas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2011 05:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1364#comment-233819</guid>
		<description>[...] 1929, when the city unveiled its ambitious Second System proposal, both Nostrand and Utica Ave. extensions were included. The Nostrand spur would have completed the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 1929, when the city unveiled its ambitious Second System proposal, both Nostrand and Utica Ave. extensions were included. The Nostrand spur would have completed the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/09/19/dreaming-of-the-second-system-where-the-subways-should-go/#comment-202920</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:10:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1364#comment-202920</guid>
		<description>Check out http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2010/01/the-futurenycsubway-introduction/ this site has a great amount of info on sas and others</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out <a href="http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2010/01/the-futurenycsubway-introduction/" rel="nofollow">http://www.vanshnookenraggen.c.....roduction/</a> this site has a great amount of info on sas and others</p>
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		<title>By: The history of a subway shell at South 4th Street :: Second Ave. Sagas</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/09/19/dreaming-of-the-second-system-where-the-subways-should-go/#comment-109092</link>
		<dc:creator>The history of a subway shell at South 4th Street :: Second Ave. Sagas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2010 04:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1364#comment-109092</guid>
		<description>[...] this station, bound for multiple points east, south and north. The Second System, which I explored in depth in 2008, which have reimagined New York City, and the Second System&#8217;s Big Apple would be a more [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this station, bound for multiple points east, south and north. The Second System, which I explored in depth in 2008, which have reimagined New York City, and the Second System&#8217;s Big Apple would be a more [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ajedrez</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/09/19/dreaming-of-the-second-system-where-the-subways-should-go/#comment-94555</link>
		<dc:creator>ajedrez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 06:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1364#comment-94555</guid>
		<description>Sorry to respond so late (the link from the article about the Utica/Nostrand Avenue Lines sent me here), but I would just like to give my thoughts on the matter:

We can see a theme with the city trying to have subways outcompete elevated lines so that they could be knocked down. The South 4th Street truck line would&#039;ve probably competed with the BMT&#039;s Broadway Line in Brooklyn (the J/M/Z). The M would&#039;ve gone down Myrtle Avenue, with no connection to the South 4th Street Line, and the J/Z would&#039;ve either terminted at Myrtle Avenue or merged onto this truck line.

In addition, at the other end of the J/Z lines, the Hillside Avenue Line would’ve competed with it for passengers by being so close to it, so there probably would’ve been another transfer station built at that end as well (so the J/Z could potentially be reduced to a second Crosstown Line).

That Long Island City Line is a BMT line, not  an IRT line (it is yellow and branches off of the 60 Street Tunnel, not the Queensboro Bridge.

As far as all of those extensions, the advantage is that the MTA would be able to save money by running fewer buses in Eastern Queens (a train has higher capacity and costs less per rider than a bus). You see how all of the routes in Eastern Queens, as well as Whitestone, tend to have a lot of riders, that could be taking 1 train instead of 10 buses.

If only there was a version of Robert Moses that was pro-transit instead of pro-car. We would really have a good transit system then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to respond so late (the link from the article about the Utica/Nostrand Avenue Lines sent me here), but I would just like to give my thoughts on the matter:</p>
<p>We can see a theme with the city trying to have subways outcompete elevated lines so that they could be knocked down. The South 4th Street truck line would&#8217;ve probably competed with the BMT&#8217;s Broadway Line in Brooklyn (the J/M/Z). The M would&#8217;ve gone down Myrtle Avenue, with no connection to the South 4th Street Line, and the J/Z would&#8217;ve either terminted at Myrtle Avenue or merged onto this truck line.</p>
<p>In addition, at the other end of the J/Z lines, the Hillside Avenue Line would’ve competed with it for passengers by being so close to it, so there probably would’ve been another transfer station built at that end as well (so the J/Z could potentially be reduced to a second Crosstown Line).</p>
<p>That Long Island City Line is a BMT line, not  an IRT line (it is yellow and branches off of the 60 Street Tunnel, not the Queensboro Bridge.</p>
<p>As far as all of those extensions, the advantage is that the MTA would be able to save money by running fewer buses in Eastern Queens (a train has higher capacity and costs less per rider than a bus). You see how all of the routes in Eastern Queens, as well as Whitestone, tend to have a lot of riders, that could be taking 1 train instead of 10 buses.</p>
<p>If only there was a version of Robert Moses that was pro-transit instead of pro-car. We would really have a good transit system then.</p>
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		<title>By: A history of futility for Utica, Nostrand extension plans :: Second Ave. Sagas</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/09/19/dreaming-of-the-second-system-where-the-subways-should-go/#comment-94553</link>
		<dc:creator>A history of futility for Utica, Nostrand extension plans :: Second Ave. Sagas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 06:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1364#comment-94553</guid>
		<description>[...] 1929, when the city unveiled its ambitious Second System proposal, both Nostrand and Utica Ave. extensions were included. The Nostrand spur would have completed the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 1929, when the city unveiled its ambitious Second System proposal, both Nostrand and Utica Ave. extensions were included. The Nostrand spur would have completed the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: vanshnookenraggen blog &#124; The futureNYCSubway: The IND Second System</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/09/19/dreaming-of-the-second-system-where-the-subways-should-go/#comment-71181</link>
		<dc:creator>vanshnookenraggen blog &#124; The futureNYCSubway: The IND Second System</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1364#comment-71181</guid>
		<description>[...] Dreaming of the Second System, Second Ave Sagas [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dreaming of the Second System, Second Ave Sagas [...]</p>
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		<title>By: When you could finally take the A train :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/09/19/dreaming-of-the-second-system-where-the-subways-should-go/#comment-64491</link>
		<dc:creator>When you could finally take the A train :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1364#comment-64491</guid>
		<description>[...] 1988, 56 years after the first A train rolled up the tracks. Meanwhile, the Second System, which I explored in depth last year, has never materialized, and we&#8217;re still waiting for the Second Ave. Subway to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 1988, 56 years after the first A train rolled up the tracks. Meanwhile, the Second System, which I explored in depth last year, has never materialized, and we&#8217;re still waiting for the Second Ave. Subway to [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Inside the system&#8217;s abandoned stations :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/09/19/dreaming-of-the-second-system-where-the-subways-should-go/#comment-60862</link>
		<dc:creator>Inside the system&#8217;s abandoned stations :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 16:33:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1364#comment-60862</guid>
		<description>[...] is dramatic, and the tale of an unfinished upper level at Roosevelt Ave. makes me yearn for the never-built second system.    Categories : Abandoned Stations, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is dramatic, and the tale of an unfinished upper level at Roosevelt Ave. makes me yearn for the never-built second system.    Categories : Abandoned Stations, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Harry Podder and the Big Apple &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Fantasy Map</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/09/19/dreaming-of-the-second-system-where-the-subways-should-go/#comment-52525</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry Podder and the Big Apple &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Fantasy Map</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 03:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1364#comment-52525</guid>
		<description>[...] like a bizarre dream looking at this 1939 map of the planned expansion for New York City Subway. Look at how the 7 line go all the way passed Flushing and go to two [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] like a bizarre dream looking at this 1939 map of the planned expansion for New York City Subway. Look at how the 7 line go all the way passed Flushing and go to two [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ellie</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/09/19/dreaming-of-the-second-system-where-the-subways-should-go/#comment-50798</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 03:13:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1364#comment-50798</guid>
		<description>To have a subway system like this, I&#039;d gladly pay more for a ride!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To have a subway system like this, I&#8217;d gladly pay more for a ride!</p>
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