Comments on: The $30 billion elephant in the room http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/11/20/the-30-billion-elephant-in-the-room/ A New York City Subway Blog Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:34:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/11/20/the-30-billion-elephant-in-the-room/#comment-57364 Alon Levy Sun, 23 Nov 2008 03:40:58 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1661#comment-57364 The numbers didn't add up. The numbers didn’t add up.

]]> By: paulb http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/11/20/the-30-billion-elephant-in-the-room/#comment-57330 paulb Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:20:56 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1661#comment-57330 Fantasy meaning the numbers never added up or fantasy in the sense that it could never be instituted? The latter seems to me an incongruous position considering it's not three weeks since the country elected one of the last guys president most people ever would have expected. Fantasy meaning the numbers never added up or fantasy in the sense that it could never be instituted? The latter seems to me an incongruous position considering it’s not three weeks since the country elected one of the last guys president most people ever would have expected.

]]> By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/11/20/the-30-billion-elephant-in-the-room/#comment-57326 Alon Levy Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:05:17 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1661#comment-57326 That was complete fantasy even in good times. That was complete fantasy even in good times.

]]> By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/11/20/the-30-billion-elephant-in-the-room/#comment-57325 Alon Levy Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:02:23 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1661#comment-57325 They'd raise the price, and make up for it by being able to make deliveries faster and using less gas. There are deliveries from Jersey to Manhattan, despite the tolls. The Outer Boroughs will survive tolls, too. They’d raise the price, and make up for it by being able to make deliveries faster and using less gas. There are deliveries from Jersey to Manhattan, despite the tolls. The Outer Boroughs will survive tolls, too.

]]> By: paulb http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/11/20/the-30-billion-elephant-in-the-room/#comment-57320 paulb Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:50:58 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1661#comment-57320 Dust off the Kheel plan. Make subway/bus riders an offer they can't refuse: ride for free, day and night. Everywhere in NYC, all the time. Free. I understand the political obstacles, but if now isn't the time to start some rumbling for this, when would be? Dust off the Kheel plan. Make subway/bus riders an offer they can’t refuse: ride for free, day and night. Everywhere in NYC, all the time. Free. I understand the political obstacles, but if now isn’t the time to start some rumbling for this, when would be?

]]> By: rhywun http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/11/20/the-30-billion-elephant-in-the-room/#comment-57317 rhywun Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:06:20 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1661#comment-57317 <blockquote>can be shifted to other lines without spinning hundreds of rollsigns</blockquote> Good point about the signs--I never thought of that. Nevertheless, I continue to hate the ugly signage on the newest trains. One of my pet peeves is seeing that RED-colored 4 or 5 coming down the tunnel, and then having to squint at the barely-legible orange lettering on the side. End rant.

can be shifted to other lines without spinning hundreds of rollsigns

Good point about the signs–I never thought of that. Nevertheless, I continue to hate the ugly signage on the newest trains. One of my pet peeves is seeing that RED-colored 4 or 5 coming down the tunnel, and then having to squint at the barely-legible orange lettering on the side. End rant.

]]> By: Scott E http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/11/20/the-30-billion-elephant-in-the-room/#comment-57311 Scott E Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:45:22 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1661#comment-57311 We understand the difference between operating costs and capital costs, but one ultimately feeds into the other, doesn't it? Let's say that Phase 1 is completed, precisely according to design and schedule. Suddenly, the operating costs just swelled. There are three more token booths to staff, additional "Q" trains to maintain headways, upwards of 30 Metrocard machines to maintain, three new platforms and gigantic mezzanines to clean,and hefty electric bills to keep the stations cool in the summer, lots of new escalators and elevators to keep running, and tons of bright yellow "This elevator/escalator is out of service until..." signs to be printed when they break. If the public restrooms in each station aren't closed by day one, they most certainly will be by day two. On the other hand, replacing old R-32 trains with shiny new R-160s will save on operating costs. The newer trains are more reliable, have "graffiti-resistant" interiors, re-generate electricity when breaking, and can be shifted to other lines without spinning hundreds of rollsigns. In the short term, yes, you can separate capital from operating expenses. But in the long run, one has a profound effect on the other. We understand the difference between operating costs and capital costs, but one ultimately feeds into the other, doesn’t it?

Let’s say that Phase 1 is completed, precisely according to design and schedule. Suddenly, the operating costs just swelled. There are three more token booths to staff, additional “Q” trains to maintain headways, upwards of 30 Metrocard machines to maintain, three new platforms and gigantic mezzanines to clean,and hefty electric bills to keep the stations cool in the summer, lots of new escalators and elevators to keep running, and tons of bright yellow “This elevator/escalator is out of service until…” signs to be printed when they break. If the public restrooms in each station aren’t closed by day one, they most certainly will be by day two.

On the other hand, replacing old R-32 trains with shiny new R-160s will save on operating costs. The newer trains are more reliable, have “graffiti-resistant” interiors, re-generate electricity when breaking, and can be shifted to other lines without spinning hundreds of rollsigns.

In the short term, yes, you can separate capital from operating expenses. But in the long run, one has a profound effect on the other.

]]> By: Marc Shepherd http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/11/20/the-30-billion-elephant-in-the-room/#comment-57307 Marc Shepherd Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:51:57 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1661#comment-57307 It depends what you mean by that. I still think the first phase (already under construction) will get built, but the date will probably slip. Even in the best of times, the MTA seldom got any big project done on time. But the later phases were always long-shots, and the odds just got longer. It depends what you mean by that. I still think the first phase (already under construction) will get built, but the date will probably slip. Even in the best of times, the MTA seldom got any big project done on time. But the later phases were always long-shots, and the odds just got longer.

]]> By: rhywun http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/11/20/the-30-billion-elephant-in-the-room/#comment-57306 rhywun Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:35:04 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1661#comment-57306 I would rather see a commercial vehicle "subsidy" than thousands of small businesses dying because either (a) the cost of entering Manhattan is so high or (b) lost business because they refuse to enter Manhattan. On the other hand, they could always just increase the price of anything delivered to Manhattan by $8. Problem solved :) I would rather see a commercial vehicle “subsidy” than thousands of small businesses dying because either (a) the cost of entering Manhattan is so high or (b) lost business because they refuse to enter Manhattan.

On the other hand, they could always just increase the price of anything delivered to Manhattan by $8. Problem solved :)

]]> By: joe c http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/11/20/the-30-billion-elephant-in-the-room/#comment-57304 joe c Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:24:00 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1661#comment-57304 Your a conductor? you won't get laid off. Your a conductor? you won’t get laid off.

]]>