<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Truth in numbers: How fare hikes are far worse than the bridge tolls</title>
	<atom:link href="http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/</link>
	<description>A New York City Subway Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 14:38:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
<xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" />
	<item>
		<title>By: Three state senators in line to block toll plan :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/#comment-59148</link>
		<dc:creator>Three state senators in line to block toll plan :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 06:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1845#comment-59148</guid>
		<description>[...] know that only around five percent of Brooklyn commuters rely on their cars traversing the East River bridges on a daily basis. In the Bronx, according to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] know that only around five percent of Brooklyn commuters rely on their cars traversing the East River bridges on a daily basis. In the Bronx, according to [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#187; Silver urges City to act on East River toll plan</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/#comment-58260</link>
		<dc:creator>Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#187; Silver urges City to act on East River toll plan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1845#comment-58260</guid>
		<description>[...] could implement a tolling plan. Considering the overwhelming opposition to a plan that would impact far fewer people than a fare hike, that sale is far from [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] could implement a tolling plan. Considering the overwhelming opposition to a plan that would impact far fewer people than a fare hike, that sale is far from [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: k.geis</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/#comment-58004</link>
		<dc:creator>k.geis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 16:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1845#comment-58004</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t resist putting the market defense of peak-time road pricing simply:

This is America. If ten people need something that only four people can have, the _only_ equitable and just thing is to put a price tag on it high enough that only four can afford it. 

Subsidies for interest groups lobbying electeds are easily arranged after-the-fact by special ezpasses for your yellow or black car, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t resist putting the market defense of peak-time road pricing simply:</p>
<p>This is America. If ten people need something that only four people can have, the _only_ equitable and just thing is to put a price tag on it high enough that only four can afford it. </p>
<p>Subsidies for interest groups lobbying electeds are easily arranged after-the-fact by special ezpasses for your yellow or black car, etc.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: k.geis</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/#comment-58003</link>
		<dc:creator>k.geis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 15:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1845#comment-58003</guid>
		<description>As a part-time driver, I&#039;ve liked no proposal as much as congestion pricing. 

I live in downtown brooklyn, and I&#039;d kill for anything that stopped this flow of cars northbound from the ever-effed Gowanus over the free bridges. 

I generally avoid NYC during the workday in a car, unless I&#039;m carpooling, in which case the toll would be no big deal at all. And at night, there&#039;s no toll - because CP&#039;s designers know there&#039;s no sense tolling a non-scarce resource. 

Prohibiting Brooklyn and Staten Island families from using the West Side and FDR as alternatives to the BQE would destroy the BQE to no effect on the Manhattan surface streets. 

And IIRC, the money raised would&#039;ve gone entirely to transit and emergency highway repair. 

I can also defend congestion pricing on purely capitalist grounds, which is appealing. It&#039;s use-fees for scarce resources, and the market decides who goes in and who stays out. There&#039;s no social engineering involved. 

It was a vastly superior plan to everything since proposed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a part-time driver, I&#8217;ve liked no proposal as much as congestion pricing. </p>
<p>I live in downtown brooklyn, and I&#8217;d kill for anything that stopped this flow of cars northbound from the ever-effed Gowanus over the free bridges. </p>
<p>I generally avoid NYC during the workday in a car, unless I&#8217;m carpooling, in which case the toll would be no big deal at all. And at night, there&#8217;s no toll &#8211; because CP&#8217;s designers know there&#8217;s no sense tolling a non-scarce resource. </p>
<p>Prohibiting Brooklyn and Staten Island families from using the West Side and FDR as alternatives to the BQE would destroy the BQE to no effect on the Manhattan surface streets. </p>
<p>And IIRC, the money raised would&#8217;ve gone entirely to transit and emergency highway repair. </p>
<p>I can also defend congestion pricing on purely capitalist grounds, which is appealing. It&#8217;s use-fees for scarce resources, and the market decides who goes in and who stays out. There&#8217;s no social engineering involved. </p>
<p>It was a vastly superior plan to everything since proposed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#187; Direct the MTA ire at Albany, says Times</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/#comment-58000</link>
		<dc:creator>Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#187; Direct the MTA ire at Albany, says Times</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 06:52:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1845#comment-58000</guid>
		<description>[...] a sense, The Times is echoing what I wrote on Monday when I explored the vast difference between the numbers of drivers and transit commuters in Brooklyn. Why they published such an [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a sense, The Times is echoing what I wrote on Monday when I explored the vast difference between the numbers of drivers and transit commuters in Brooklyn. Why they published such an [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cap'n Transit</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/#comment-57969</link>
		<dc:creator>Cap'n Transit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1845#comment-57969</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t buy it, John.  Outer borough politicians have long worked against subway and commuter rail expansion, from the La Guardia train to the Rockaway Cut-Off.  If there had been strong support for, say, extending the F train to the city line, it would probably have happened by now.

The Ravitch plan does specify a massive increase in bus service in the outer boroughs before any tolls are put in place, but you might not know that if you relied on the TV networks for your transit news.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t buy it, John.  Outer borough politicians have long worked against subway and commuter rail expansion, from the La Guardia train to the Rockaway Cut-Off.  If there had been strong support for, say, extending the F train to the city line, it would probably have happened by now.</p>
<p>The Ravitch plan does specify a massive increase in bus service in the outer boroughs before any tolls are put in place, but you might not know that if you relied on the TV networks for your transit news.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/#comment-57945</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:13:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1845#comment-57945</guid>
		<description>I think that if in conjunction with the new tolls it was also stated that the MTA would start paying attention to the outerboroughs so that they have an adequate level of good mass transit then this might be easier to swallow. However with the 7 extension and the second avenue subway both being in Manhattan I can understand the resistance to this plan. I know the money is needed now to pay off debt but what happens when things bounce back? Will the MTA continue to ignore every borough not named Manhattan? There is a demand and a just one to be more forward thinking with our mass transit yet all that is being talked about is how the Ravitch Plan will plug the hole, at some point that hole won&#039;t be there and then how will we proceed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that if in conjunction with the new tolls it was also stated that the MTA would start paying attention to the outerboroughs so that they have an adequate level of good mass transit then this might be easier to swallow. However with the 7 extension and the second avenue subway both being in Manhattan I can understand the resistance to this plan. I know the money is needed now to pay off debt but what happens when things bounce back? Will the MTA continue to ignore every borough not named Manhattan? There is a demand and a just one to be more forward thinking with our mass transit yet all that is being talked about is how the Ravitch Plan will plug the hole, at some point that hole won&#8217;t be there and then how will we proceed?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cap'n Transit</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/#comment-57926</link>
		<dc:creator>Cap'n Transit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 06:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1845#comment-57926</guid>
		<description>Scott, that argument doesn&#039;t hold water.  Here&#039;s what Councilmember Eric Gioia, the son of a florist, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dmiblog.com/archives/2007/05/liveblog_marketplace_of_ideas.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;had to say about it&lt;/a&gt; last year:

&lt;blockquote&gt;My dad owns a flower shop in Queens. My dad used to deliver in a truck to Manhattan--it&#039;s no longer profitable thanks to the &quot;time tax&quot;-- it takes too long, the gas is too expensive. There are business owners in the outer ring who are making the decision every day about getting into Manhattan, and the congestion fee is just putting a number on that.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In other words, the cost of the toll is more than offset by the savings from not having to pay employees to sit in traffic, or from being able to make more deliveries per day.

It&#039;s possible that multiple tolls per day might add up to a net loss.  I don&#039;t have a problem with charging people only once per day, as was proposed for congestion pricing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, that argument doesn&#8217;t hold water.  Here&#8217;s what Councilmember Eric Gioia, the son of a florist, <a href="http://www.dmiblog.com/archives/2007/05/liveblog_marketplace_of_ideas.html" rel="nofollow">had to say about it</a> last year:</p>
<blockquote><p>My dad owns a flower shop in Queens. My dad used to deliver in a truck to Manhattan&#8211;it&#8217;s no longer profitable thanks to the &#8220;time tax&#8221;&#8211; it takes too long, the gas is too expensive. There are business owners in the outer ring who are making the decision every day about getting into Manhattan, and the congestion fee is just putting a number on that.</p></blockquote>
<p>In other words, the cost of the toll is more than offset by the savings from not having to pay employees to sit in traffic, or from being able to make more deliveries per day.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s possible that multiple tolls per day might add up to a net loss.  I don&#8217;t have a problem with charging people only once per day, as was proposed for congestion pricing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott E</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/#comment-57921</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 02:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1845#comment-57921</guid>
		<description>I recall one argument against bridge tolls is that it would hurt small businesses (florists and restaurants, for instance) that cross the bridges several times per day to make deliveries.  I wonder if a cap (for instance, an E-ZPass tagholder would pay no more than one round-trip fare per day, regardless of number of crossings) would help appease some of this opposition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recall one argument against bridge tolls is that it would hurt small businesses (florists and restaurants, for instance) that cross the bridges several times per day to make deliveries.  I wonder if a cap (for instance, an E-ZPass tagholder would pay no more than one round-trip fare per day, regardless of number of crossings) would help appease some of this opposition.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/22/truth-in-numbers-how-fare-hikes-are-far-worse-than-the-bridge-tolls/#comment-57915</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1845#comment-57915</guid>
		<description>That is one hell of a confusing pie chart. It took me a while just to figure out what it was actually showing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is one hell of a confusing pie chart. It took me a while just to figure out what it was actually showing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

