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	<title>Comments on: Pondering a zone system with $3 fares looming</title>
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	<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/23/pondering-a-zone-system-with-3-fares-looming/</link>
	<description>A New York City Subway Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Duke87</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/23/pondering-a-zone-system-with-3-fares-looming/#comment-57959</link>
		<dc:creator>Duke87</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 00:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1852#comment-57959</guid>
		<description>The thing I really don&#039;t like about fare zones in any system is that it violates the old &quot;keep it simple, stupid&quot; principle. I don&#039;t have to put any thought when I get on the train into how much it&#039;s going to cost me, depending on where I&#039;m getting off. I know exactly what it&#039;ll cost no matter where my start and end points are. Simple, easy. And with a system as large and complex as New York&#039;s, any simplicity you can get is that much more valuable. 

That said, I wouldn&#039;t be completely opposed to the idea of peak fares. Make it $3 from 7 to 9 AM and 4 to 6 PM weekdays, $2.50 other times during the day, and leave it at $2 nights and weekends. That would be a more sensible way of varying the fare than adding zones. Oh, and it wouldn&#039;t require exit swipes and thus wouldn&#039;t require replacing thousands of turnstiles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing I really don&#8217;t like about fare zones in any system is that it violates the old &#8220;keep it simple, stupid&#8221; principle. I don&#8217;t have to put any thought when I get on the train into how much it&#8217;s going to cost me, depending on where I&#8217;m getting off. I know exactly what it&#8217;ll cost no matter where my start and end points are. Simple, easy. And with a system as large and complex as New York&#8217;s, any simplicity you can get is that much more valuable. </p>
<p>That said, I wouldn&#8217;t be completely opposed to the idea of peak fares. Make it $3 from 7 to 9 AM and 4 to 6 PM weekdays, $2.50 other times during the day, and leave it at $2 nights and weekends. That would be a more sensible way of varying the fare than adding zones. Oh, and it wouldn&#8217;t require exit swipes and thus wouldn&#8217;t require replacing thousands of turnstiles.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Shepherd</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/23/pondering-a-zone-system-with-3-fares-looming/#comment-57951</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Shepherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1852#comment-57951</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&gt; There is no good reason why other cities have fare zones, and New
&gt; York does not. 

The political reason is as good as any.&lt;/em&gt;

The political reason, among others, explains why it will never change. It doesn&#039;t explain why it was built that way in the first place.

A good analogy is the East River and Harlem River bridge tolls. There is no good reason why the there&#039;s a toll on the Battery Tunnel, but no toll on the Brooklyn Bridge. It&#039;s just historical, but certain politicians will argue to the death that it ought to stay that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&gt; There is no good reason why other cities have fare zones, and New<br />
&gt; York does not. </p>
<p>The political reason is as good as any.</em></p>
<p>The political reason, among others, explains why it will never change. It doesn&#8217;t explain why it was built that way in the first place.</p>
<p>A good analogy is the East River and Harlem River bridge tolls. There is no good reason why the there&#8217;s a toll on the Battery Tunnel, but no toll on the Brooklyn Bridge. It&#8217;s just historical, but certain politicians will argue to the death that it ought to stay that way.</p>
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		<title>By: rhywun</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/23/pondering-a-zone-system-with-3-fares-looming/#comment-57946</link>
		<dc:creator>rhywun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1852#comment-57946</guid>
		<description>&gt; There is no good reason why other cities have fare zones, and New 
&gt; York does not. 

The political reason is as good as any.

&gt; you won’t have entering and exiting passengers staring each other 
&gt; down

Oh that would be NICE here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; There is no good reason why other cities have fare zones, and New<br />
&gt; York does not. </p>
<p>The political reason is as good as any.</p>
<p>&gt; you won’t have entering and exiting passengers staring each other<br />
&gt; down</p>
<p>Oh that would be NICE here.</p>
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		<title>By: Tania</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/23/pondering-a-zone-system-with-3-fares-looming/#comment-57944</link>
		<dc:creator>Tania</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1852#comment-57944</guid>
		<description>The problem with a zone system is exactly what you criticized: screwing over those who are poor. The cheaper areas of NY--upper neighborhoods in the Bronx, Jamaica, Bay Ridge, etc.--are those that would be charged the most to make it to Manhattan proper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with a zone system is exactly what you criticized: screwing over those who are poor. The cheaper areas of NY&#8211;upper neighborhoods in the Bronx, Jamaica, Bay Ridge, etc.&#8211;are those that would be charged the most to make it to Manhattan proper.</p>
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		<title>By: Kai</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/23/pondering-a-zone-system-with-3-fares-looming/#comment-57943</link>
		<dc:creator>Kai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1852#comment-57943</guid>
		<description>Good analysis, and the two problems are exactly why I disagree with the zone system. I do think Metrocards should be replaced with a more reliable technology.

A zone system would discourage people from living in the outer areas of the city. In smaller geographical cities, like DC, it helps the city by keeping people from living in Virginia. But here in NYC, the entire system lies within the city.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good analysis, and the two problems are exactly why I disagree with the zone system. I do think Metrocards should be replaced with a more reliable technology.</p>
<p>A zone system would discourage people from living in the outer areas of the city. In smaller geographical cities, like DC, it helps the city by keeping people from living in Virginia. But here in NYC, the entire system lies within the city.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Shepherd</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/23/pondering-a-zone-system-with-3-fares-looming/#comment-57941</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Shepherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1852#comment-57941</guid>
		<description>There is no good reason why other cities have fare zones, and New York does not. The same arguments, for or against, make sense in any large urban area.

However, it is a political, a financial, and a practical non-starter. The politics are obvious, but the engineering problem is a nightmare. It isn&#039;t just a matter of replacing every turnstile at 468 stations. You actually need more of them to maintain throughput, since exiting the system would be &quot;harder&quot; (&lt;em&gt;i.e.&lt;/em&gt; would take longer) per person. In London, the larger stations have many more turnstiles than in New York, and they&#039;re usually set to work only one way, so that you won&#039;t have entering and exiting passengers staring each other down. New York doesn&#039;t have that problem (or not to that extent) because exiting is easy.

The financial issue is that it would cost hundreds of millions, maybe a billion, and many years, to retrofit the whole system. Imagine the case for making that investment: &quot;The great thing is, we&#039;ll be able to charge more money in the outer boroughs.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no good reason why other cities have fare zones, and New York does not. The same arguments, for or against, make sense in any large urban area.</p>
<p>However, it is a political, a financial, and a practical non-starter. The politics are obvious, but the engineering problem is a nightmare. It isn&#8217;t just a matter of replacing every turnstile at 468 stations. You actually need more of them to maintain throughput, since exiting the system would be &#8220;harder&#8221; (<em>i.e.</em> would take longer) per person. In London, the larger stations have many more turnstiles than in New York, and they&#8217;re usually set to work only one way, so that you won&#8217;t have entering and exiting passengers staring each other down. New York doesn&#8217;t have that problem (or not to that extent) because exiting is easy.</p>
<p>The financial issue is that it would cost hundreds of millions, maybe a billion, and many years, to retrofit the whole system. Imagine the case for making that investment: &#8220;The great thing is, we&#8217;ll be able to charge more money in the outer boroughs.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: rhywun</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/23/pondering-a-zone-system-with-3-fares-looming/#comment-57939</link>
		<dc:creator>rhywun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1852#comment-57939</guid>
		<description>You are correct that the DC system is mainly a commuter line, and the London system has a large suburban component, however it&#039;s not like residents of Manhattan don&#039;t already pay hundreds of dollars rent more than most people in the outer boroughs. Paying less for shorter trips could be seen as another &quot;benefit&quot; of living in Manhattan. In other words, fare zones aren&#039;t as unfair as people will make them out to be. Many of us live outside Manhattan by choice precisely so we can save that money. It&#039;s not like all residents of Manhattan are overflowing with riches, and all residents of the outer boroughs are on the dole.

That said, I&#039;m against zoning. This is *one* city, it should be one fare. Now is not the time to pit borough against borough. There&#039;s already enough of that going on with the bridge tolls. Besides, it would be political suicide to support the idea...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are correct that the DC system is mainly a commuter line, and the London system has a large suburban component, however it&#8217;s not like residents of Manhattan don&#8217;t already pay hundreds of dollars rent more than most people in the outer boroughs. Paying less for shorter trips could be seen as another &#8220;benefit&#8221; of living in Manhattan. In other words, fare zones aren&#8217;t as unfair as people will make them out to be. Many of us live outside Manhattan by choice precisely so we can save that money. It&#8217;s not like all residents of Manhattan are overflowing with riches, and all residents of the outer boroughs are on the dole.</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;m against zoning. This is *one* city, it should be one fare. Now is not the time to pit borough against borough. There&#8217;s already enough of that going on with the bridge tolls. Besides, it would be political suicide to support the idea&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Shepherd</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/23/pondering-a-zone-system-with-3-fares-looming/#comment-57938</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Shepherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1852#comment-57938</guid>
		<description>The $3 base fare is a good idea, and it should be implemented regardless of what happens to the Ravitch proposal. The base fare is a symbolic figure. Regular riders don&#039;t pay that amount. Those who do are &quot;occasional&quot; riders (visitors, tourists, &lt;em&gt;etc.&lt;/em&gt;), and the extra buck won&#039;t kill them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The $3 base fare is a good idea, and it should be implemented regardless of what happens to the Ravitch proposal. The base fare is a symbolic figure. Regular riders don&#8217;t pay that amount. Those who do are &#8220;occasional&#8221; riders (visitors, tourists, <em>etc.</em>), and the extra buck won&#8217;t kill them.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/23/pondering-a-zone-system-with-3-fares-looming/#comment-57937</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1852#comment-57937</guid>
		<description>Yeah, Peak fares a la the Commuter Lines might be a way to sweeten a sour necessity, but the elephant in the subway car is Ted Kheel&#039;s plan to make it all free and impose a modest tax on city and region residents as a whole. Nobody seriously discusses the practicality of it. It used to be unspeakably impractical,politically, but so was tolling E River bridges, once. 
And  everyone benefits from Mass Transit whether they actually ride it or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, Peak fares a la the Commuter Lines might be a way to sweeten a sour necessity, but the elephant in the subway car is Ted Kheel&#8217;s plan to make it all free and impose a modest tax on city and region residents as a whole. Nobody seriously discusses the practicality of it. It used to be unspeakably impractical,politically, but so was tolling E River bridges, once.<br />
And  everyone benefits from Mass Transit whether they actually ride it or not.</p>
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		<title>By: James D</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2008/12/23/pondering-a-zone-system-with-3-fares-looming/#comment-57934</link>
		<dc:creator>James D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=1852#comment-57934</guid>
		<description>Retrofitting the entire system for exit swipes is just unrealistic. The costs would be prohibitive, and it would probably result in closing a *lot* of the less-used stations (I don&#039;t just mean really low-ridership ones such as Bushwick-Aberdeen either). The consequence would almost certainly be lower revenues.

The other sort of differential fare -- the charge, say, $3 between, say, 7am and 9am Mondays through Fridays version -- seems much more practicable. This even more so targets a user group that is overwhelmingly responsible for the MTA&#039;s fixed costs. I suspect that the price elasticity of demand is low at that time of day, so it should actually raise some revenue.

And obviously, this would allow the $3 minus $2.50 (or whatever) to be multiplied by five-sevenths of the number of days on an unlimited; and then this be added to the price of those too in order not to skew the market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Retrofitting the entire system for exit swipes is just unrealistic. The costs would be prohibitive, and it would probably result in closing a *lot* of the less-used stations (I don&#8217;t just mean really low-ridership ones such as Bushwick-Aberdeen either). The consequence would almost certainly be lower revenues.</p>
<p>The other sort of differential fare &#8212; the charge, say, $3 between, say, 7am and 9am Mondays through Fridays version &#8212; seems much more practicable. This even more so targets a user group that is overwhelmingly responsible for the MTA&#8217;s fixed costs. I suspect that the price elasticity of demand is low at that time of day, so it should actually raise some revenue.</p>
<p>And obviously, this would allow the $3 minus $2.50 (or whatever) to be multiplied by five-sevenths of the number of days on an unlimited; and then this be added to the price of those too in order not to skew the market.</p>
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