Comments on: Fulton St. costs rising after legal ruling

By: AlexB

AlexB — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:20:44 +0000

I would be shocked if they were able to build the triboro line for $22 million/km. The hudson bergen light rail was around $35 million/km. The triboro stations are bound to be more elaborate and the work needed to build the new tracks more complicated. I think $2 billion would be the low end of how much that might cost. This is NYC remember.

By: Nathanael

Nathanael — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 01:37:22 +0000

The existing Fulton Street station works. It gets you to where you want to go, and permits transfers among almost all lines passing through Lower Manhattan.

No, it doesn’t. Try being a tourist or someone in a wheelchair — or worse, both. Or someone on a crush-loaded IRT platform. I’ve dealt with all three.

The existing Fulton Street stations all needed to have major reconstruction work for ADA accessibility and passenger volumes, that work was going to require taking most of those buildings anyway, and failing to admit that is just ignorant.

However, doing it only up to the ground level and returning the upper level development rights might well have provided a “non-cash” solution to this problem.

By: Nathanael

Nathanael — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 01:34:00 +0000

Um, the *actual* purpose of this project was to straighten out the connections which currently run parallel to the ACE lines, eliminate overcrowding on the IRT platforms, and to add ADA accessibility. All of this *badly* needed to be done.

The surface building was a boondoggle…. but to do the above items required tearing down most of the buildings on the block anyway.

The surface building may never materialize anyway.

I wonder if they could have simply planned a ground floor (and below) transit center and offered the overhead development rights back to the previous property owners. Seems to make sense to me. Actually, if they handle it right, they may end up getting more money from renting commercial space on upper floors than it cost them to buy the properties.

By: Alon Levy

Alon Levy — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 04:21:25 +0000

It’s not billions and billions. The line runs on existing ROW, with no need for new tunnels, which are what makes subways so expensive. When the ROW is in place, the cost is the same as for surface light rail, which averages about $22 million per route-km. New York’s higher cost of living means this should be budgeted at perhaps $30 million per km. The Triboro route is 35 km long, making the total cost $1.05 billion, which is equivalent to two years’ worth of SAS Phase 1 budget overruns.

By: Benjamin Kabak

Benjamin Kabak — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 03:30:05 +0000

How about the billions and billions of dollars it’s going to cost?

By: Adam

Adam — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 03:27:29 +0000

The Triboro Line has to be done. Don’t know what’s putting it off other than disdain for livable neighborhoods in the outer boroughs.

By: Alon Levy

Alon Levy — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:45:17 +0000

No, it isn’t practical. The existing Fulton Street station works. It gets you to where you want to go, and permits transfers among almost all lines passing through Lower Manhattan. The transfers aren’t very convenient, but that’s what happens when you have four lines under four different streets. There’s no more or less light than at other subway stations.

Most subway stations have no need for any above-ground structures, either, much less a mall dignified with the name “transit center.” (A good rule of thumb is that if you’re worried about retail more than about transit circulation, it’s a mall, not a train station). The only exceptions here are stations that serve real train stations, like Atlantic-Pacific or Grand Central.

By: Alon Levy

Alon Levy — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:34:10 +0000

PATH is a subway.

And the city has just one subway extension under consideration that could use the money more. The 7 extension is a total waste. Beyond that, I’d argue that a tunnel from the Staten Island Railway to South Ferry to Fulton is the best use of rapid transit money in New York next to SAS and possibly Triboro Line.

By: AlexB

AlexB — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:54:05 +0000

You are totally right, but for a billion dollars, aren’t we allowed to hope for something more meaningful than a thoughtful reorganization? The pretty new station and general cleaning up of the existing structures should have been the icing on the cake of a much larger project that brough new transit capacity to downtown.

Side question: is there space in the Fulton St complex or the new PATH complex for a commuter train platform?

By: Peter

Peter — Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:50:30 +0000

The point of the Fulton Hub – or Station – is to combine and consolidate the tangle of independently-constructed (IRT, BMT & IND) and formerly disconnected lines and stations that snake through this neighborhood, and to rationalize, organize and turn a series of archaic twisting maze of passages into a facility that is easily navigated and humanly (as opposed to rodently) scaled. the MTA couldve done all the construction entirely below ground. But condemnation of the properties would still have been necessary. Constructing a large central structure with ample street frontage for vastly better access and amenities, and an expansive space that allows light, air and openess into the station is perfectly practical.