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	<title>Comments on: When you could finally take the A train</title>
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	<description>A New York City Subway Blog</description>
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		<title>By: AlexB</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/10/when-you-could-finally-take-the-a-train/#comment-64694</link>
		<dc:creator>AlexB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3821#comment-64694</guid>
		<description>Fair enough about the routings of the lines.  They should have tried harder to provide better connections.

The MTA runs 15 Fs, 15 Es, 10 Vs and 10 Rs per hour, totaling 50, as many as any other line.  I ride the V or R almost every day at rush hour and there are often seats, so it&#039;s not a big issue.  Between those two trains, I can make just about whatever connection I need.  Now, ideally, I think a new pair of tracks connecting the QB local and the Astoria line somewhere between Queens Plaza and 39th Ave would make the system work much better for intra Queens and Queens-Brooklyn travel.  Basically, the Queens routings of the V and W could be switched and the G could go to Astoria if there were room.

Even if there were more tunnels, you couldn&#039;t fit any more Es or Fs on the QB express.  The location of the 63rd St tunnel doesn&#039;t keep the F train from being packed to the gils as it crosses the East River, so it&#039;s not like it killed ridership.  

The mezzanines are a luxury that probably could have been dispensed with in many places, but I think you would have to have built most of the flying junctions to have the level of service that exists today.  They were planning for a much larger system that took decades for the built-in capacity to be utilized.  Whoever designed the junction of the 2/5 and 3/4 would probably have done things differently if they could see how that turned out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough about the routings of the lines.  They should have tried harder to provide better connections.</p>
<p>The MTA runs 15 Fs, 15 Es, 10 Vs and 10 Rs per hour, totaling 50, as many as any other line.  I ride the V or R almost every day at rush hour and there are often seats, so it&#8217;s not a big issue.  Between those two trains, I can make just about whatever connection I need.  Now, ideally, I think a new pair of tracks connecting the QB local and the Astoria line somewhere between Queens Plaza and 39th Ave would make the system work much better for intra Queens and Queens-Brooklyn travel.  Basically, the Queens routings of the V and W could be switched and the G could go to Astoria if there were room.</p>
<p>Even if there were more tunnels, you couldn&#8217;t fit any more Es or Fs on the QB express.  The location of the 63rd St tunnel doesn&#8217;t keep the F train from being packed to the gils as it crosses the East River, so it&#8217;s not like it killed ridership.  </p>
<p>The mezzanines are a luxury that probably could have been dispensed with in many places, but I think you would have to have built most of the flying junctions to have the level of service that exists today.  They were planning for a much larger system that took decades for the built-in capacity to be utilized.  Whoever designed the junction of the 2/5 and 3/4 would probably have done things differently if they could see how that turned out.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/10/when-you-could-finally-take-the-a-train/#comment-64595</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 17:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3821#comment-64595</guid>
		<description>The el on 53rd Street came before there were subways in New York; it can&#039;t be blamed for not connecting to the subway. However, when you design a new system, it&#039;s incumbent upon you not to blindly copy existing practices, but to see where you can improve. Ironically, the Second System was designed fairly well, with lines serving high-demand corridors like Second Avenue (where population density is about twice that of CPW) and cross-system connections at Utica. It&#039;s the IND that was actually built that doesn&#039;t connect to anything.

The QB line doesn&#039;t really have 6 tracks. The 63rd Street tunnel is far away from where people want to go, and due to track-sharing on QB can&#039;t run more than 15 tph unless the E becomes local. The 60th Street tunnel involves track-sharing, again.

Besides, the IND made mistakes not just in the routing, but also in infrastructure design. Subway stations don&#039;t need full-length mezzanines, and tracks don&#039;t need flying junctions at every intersection. Those extra features are what blew the budget on the First System, ensuring the Second System would never be built.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The el on 53rd Street came before there were subways in New York; it can&#8217;t be blamed for not connecting to the subway. However, when you design a new system, it&#8217;s incumbent upon you not to blindly copy existing practices, but to see where you can improve. Ironically, the Second System was designed fairly well, with lines serving high-demand corridors like Second Avenue (where population density is about twice that of CPW) and cross-system connections at Utica. It&#8217;s the IND that was actually built that doesn&#8217;t connect to anything.</p>
<p>The QB line doesn&#8217;t really have 6 tracks. The 63rd Street tunnel is far away from where people want to go, and due to track-sharing on QB can&#8217;t run more than 15 tph unless the E becomes local. The 60th Street tunnel involves track-sharing, again.</p>
<p>Besides, the IND made mistakes not just in the routing, but also in infrastructure design. Subway stations don&#8217;t need full-length mezzanines, and tracks don&#8217;t need flying junctions at every intersection. Those extra features are what blew the budget on the First System, ensuring the Second System would never be built.</p>
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		<title>By: AlexB</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/10/when-you-could-finally-take-the-a-train/#comment-64585</link>
		<dc:creator>AlexB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 12:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3821#comment-64585</guid>
		<description>I said that the 6th and 8th avenues lines together ran about 80 trains per hour during rush hour, not each by themselves.

The QB line has access to 6 tracks headed into Manhattan, and has to share two of those with the NW.  

I agree that the G should have provided a connection to Atlantic-Pacific and the QB line should have provided easier connections to QBP, and the variety of stops along 49th, 50th and 51st Sts. They could have routed the G line down Greene Ave and State St, which would have connected it to the A-P complex.  That probably would have been wiser.   

However, my point it that the IND was following pre-established notions of where the lines should run.  In retrospect, they were wrong, but these notions were not just the ideas of the IND.  The IRT planned a subway down Lafayette Ave in Brooklyn that also would have bypassed the A-P station (although it would pass through Nevins.)  The IRT el on 53rd St was replaced in the same location.  There were precedents of the IND.  The IND designers did not sit around coming up with inconvenient subways, they simply built other people&#039;s ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I said that the 6th and 8th avenues lines together ran about 80 trains per hour during rush hour, not each by themselves.</p>
<p>The QB line has access to 6 tracks headed into Manhattan, and has to share two of those with the NW.  </p>
<p>I agree that the G should have provided a connection to Atlantic-Pacific and the QB line should have provided easier connections to QBP, and the variety of stops along 49th, 50th and 51st Sts. They could have routed the G line down Greene Ave and State St, which would have connected it to the A-P complex.  That probably would have been wiser.   </p>
<p>However, my point it that the IND was following pre-established notions of where the lines should run.  In retrospect, they were wrong, but these notions were not just the ideas of the IND.  The IRT planned a subway down Lafayette Ave in Brooklyn that also would have bypassed the A-P station (although it would pass through Nevins.)  The IRT el on 53rd St was replaced in the same location.  There were precedents of the IND.  The IND designers did not sit around coming up with inconvenient subways, they simply built other people&#8217;s ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/10/when-you-could-finally-take-the-a-train/#comment-64574</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 01:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3821#comment-64574</guid>
		<description>No line runs 80 trains per hour. The Lex line schedules 54; the QB line schedules 50. The 8th Avenue trunk line schedules 32 tph per direction, the 6th Avenue line schedules 42.

The F didn&#039;t really provide more service to the LES than the 2nd Avenue el, which ran on 1st south of 23rd.

The problem with the QB line, if anything, is that it is only two-tracked when entering Manhattan. Even in the 1930s Queens had a clear shortage of transit capacity into Manhattan: it had the same population as the Bronx but only half as many two-track crossings into Manhattan, 3 instead of 6. A better-designed IND would have had the G connect to Atlantic-Pacific and QBP, and had a fully four-tracked QB line connecting to QBP and running along 50th to connect to the existing IRT and BMT subways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No line runs 80 trains per hour. The Lex line schedules 54; the QB line schedules 50. The 8th Avenue trunk line schedules 32 tph per direction, the 6th Avenue line schedules 42.</p>
<p>The F didn&#8217;t really provide more service to the LES than the 2nd Avenue el, which ran on 1st south of 23rd.</p>
<p>The problem with the QB line, if anything, is that it is only two-tracked when entering Manhattan. Even in the 1930s Queens had a clear shortage of transit capacity into Manhattan: it had the same population as the Bronx but only half as many two-track crossings into Manhattan, 3 instead of 6. A better-designed IND would have had the G connect to Atlantic-Pacific and QBP, and had a fully four-tracked QB line connecting to QBP and running along 50th to connect to the existing IRT and BMT subways.</p>
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		<title>By: AlexB</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/10/when-you-could-finally-take-the-a-train/#comment-64537</link>
		<dc:creator>AlexB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 03:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3821#comment-64537</guid>
		<description>In defense of the IND:
- I don&#039;t think following the route of a torn down el is a bad thing.  Saying the A wasn&#039;t worth it because els previously existed on 9th Ave and Fulton St doesn&#039;t make sense.  The A and C provide constant express/local service in both directions while the Fulton and 9th Ave els were each three tracks, both terminated in downtown Manhattan, and neither had the same number of transfer opportunities.
- Much of the goal of the IND was to replace the els.  That many of the routes followed the els they replaced was logical, not a plot to steer clear of the IRT and BMT (although that was also a goal).  Two replaced els, on Fulton St in BK and 53rd St in Manhattan, provided the same or fewer transfer options to the IRT/BMT subways.  The Fulton St el didn&#039;t connect to Atlantic-Pacific either.
- The entirely new routes (basically the F and G) really did break new ground.  The G was ill conceived in terms of transfer opportunities, but remains the only subway service in many areas, which are now rapidly gentrifying because of it.  The F strings together Kensington, Park Slope, Carroll Gardens, DUMBO, and the LES and provides service to these areas that never had it during the era of the els.  
- The A to upper Manhattan and the E to Queens are still the fastest subways by far in these areas.  Not only do they spur growth on their routes, they also allowed for a lot of new capacity.  About 80  trains per hour run through the 6th and 8th Ave trunks.  The IND trains have higher capacity per train than the IRT or BMT.  If the IND had never been built, the 7, N/Q/R/W and 1/2/3 trains would be thoroughly overloaded by now.  The Lexington subway would be a minor problem in comparison.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In defense of the IND:<br />
- I don&#8217;t think following the route of a torn down el is a bad thing.  Saying the A wasn&#8217;t worth it because els previously existed on 9th Ave and Fulton St doesn&#8217;t make sense.  The A and C provide constant express/local service in both directions while the Fulton and 9th Ave els were each three tracks, both terminated in downtown Manhattan, and neither had the same number of transfer opportunities.<br />
- Much of the goal of the IND was to replace the els.  That many of the routes followed the els they replaced was logical, not a plot to steer clear of the IRT and BMT (although that was also a goal).  Two replaced els, on Fulton St in BK and 53rd St in Manhattan, provided the same or fewer transfer options to the IRT/BMT subways.  The Fulton St el didn&#8217;t connect to Atlantic-Pacific either.<br />
- The entirely new routes (basically the F and G) really did break new ground.  The G was ill conceived in terms of transfer opportunities, but remains the only subway service in many areas, which are now rapidly gentrifying because of it.  The F strings together Kensington, Park Slope, Carroll Gardens, DUMBO, and the LES and provides service to these areas that never had it during the era of the els.<br />
- The A to upper Manhattan and the E to Queens are still the fastest subways by far in these areas.  Not only do they spur growth on their routes, they also allowed for a lot of new capacity.  About 80  trains per hour run through the 6th and 8th Ave trunks.  The IND trains have higher capacity per train than the IRT or BMT.  If the IND had never been built, the 7, N/Q/R/W and 1/2/3 trains would be thoroughly overloaded by now.  The Lexington subway would be a minor problem in comparison.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/10/when-you-could-finally-take-the-a-train/#comment-64531</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3821#comment-64531</guid>
		<description>The biggest museum is located between CPW and Columbus, and could be equally served by a station at Columbus and 79th.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The biggest museum is located between CPW and Columbus, and could be equally served by a station at Columbus and 79th.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/10/when-you-could-finally-take-the-a-train/#comment-64528</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3821#comment-64528</guid>
		<description>But that wasn&#039;t the point. The point was to get rid of the els, the streetcars, and the mixed use neighborhoods. Second Avenue El was more modern in its design and could&#039;ve lasted much longer than Third Avenue El; the reason they took it down first is that if they&#039;d taken down Third Avenue El instead, they wouldn&#039;t have been able to take down Second Avenue El without building SAS first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But that wasn&#8217;t the point. The point was to get rid of the els, the streetcars, and the mixed use neighborhoods. Second Avenue El was more modern in its design and could&#8217;ve lasted much longer than Third Avenue El; the reason they took it down first is that if they&#8217;d taken down Third Avenue El instead, they wouldn&#8217;t have been able to take down Second Avenue El without building SAS first.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/10/when-you-could-finally-take-the-a-train/#comment-64527</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3821#comment-64527</guid>
		<description>Sixth Avenue already had a subway - it went to Greenwich Village and Jersey City.

And the reason SAS wasn&#039;t built when it was first promised is that the IND First System was overdesigned and overbuilt, leading to cost overruns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sixth Avenue already had a subway &#8211; it went to Greenwich Village and Jersey City.</p>
<p>And the reason SAS wasn&#8217;t built when it was first promised is that the IND First System was overdesigned and overbuilt, leading to cost overruns.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/10/when-you-could-finally-take-the-a-train/#comment-64526</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 23:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3821#comment-64526</guid>
		<description>PATH managed to build a subway under Sixth Avenue El. The IND later managed to build a subway around PATH and under Sixth Avenue El. In Brooklyn, the IND built a subway under Fulton Street El.

The problem with CPW isn&#039;t just that there&#039;s a park on one side. It&#039;s that the buildings are just residential, and relatively low-density at that, whereas Columbus is more mixed-use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PATH managed to build a subway under Sixth Avenue El. The IND later managed to build a subway around PATH and under Sixth Avenue El. In Brooklyn, the IND built a subway under Fulton Street El.</p>
<p>The problem with CPW isn&#8217;t just that there&#8217;s a park on one side. It&#8217;s that the buildings are just residential, and relatively low-density at that, whereas Columbus is more mixed-use.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerrold</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/10/when-you-could-finally-take-the-a-train/#comment-64518</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerrold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 01:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3821#comment-64518</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s right.  They could have thrown down the 2nd Ave. el, built the 2nd Ave. subway, and THEN thrown down the 3rd Ave. el.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s right.  They could have thrown down the 2nd Ave. el, built the 2nd Ave. subway, and THEN thrown down the 3rd Ave. el.</p>
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