Comments on: Making the case for open transit data http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/24/making-the-case-for-open-transit-data/ A New York City Subway Blog Sat, 26 May 2012 04:42:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/24/making-the-case-for-open-transit-data/#comment-64975 Alon Levy Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:37:34 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3914#comment-64975 If Tokyo didn't exist, you might be able to say that 2.5 billion riders a year is inconceivable. However, given that it does exist, the subway can make a profit, even at today's labor costs. Right now the subway recovers 67 cents on the dollar at the farebox. A 50% increase in average load factors, which is easy with current off-peak service, will make it break even operationally. If Tokyo didn’t exist, you might be able to say that 2.5 billion riders a year is inconceivable. However, given that it does exist, the subway can make a profit, even at today’s labor costs. Right now the subway recovers 67 cents on the dollar at the farebox. A 50% increase in average load factors, which is easy with current off-peak service, will make it break even operationally.

]]> By: Marc Shepherd http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/24/making-the-case-for-open-transit-data/#comment-64972 Marc Shepherd Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:28:19 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3914#comment-64972 There is no conceivable number of passengers that would make the MTA profitable. Can't happen. It loses money on every trip. However, increasing ridership on under-utilized routes would narrow the amount of the loss. There is no conceivable number of passengers that would make the MTA profitable. Can’t happen. It loses money on every trip. However, increasing ridership on under-utilized routes would narrow the amount of the loss.

]]> By: SEAN http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/24/making-the-case-for-open-transit-data/#comment-64971 SEAN Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:27:47 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3914#comment-64971 Trimet in Portland OR has been open sourcing it's apps for some time now. You can find it directly on their home page. And the MTA? *SILENCE* Trimet in Portland OR has been open sourcing it’s apps for some time now. You can find it directly on their home page. And the MTA? *SILENCE*

]]> By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/24/making-the-case-for-open-transit-data/#comment-64970 Alon Levy Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:21:24 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3914#comment-64970 Harlan, both costs and revenues rise with ridership, but revenues rise faster. Energy is mostly fixed: at current crush loads (~75% of capacity), the train weighs 33% more than when empty. Labor costs are also mostly fixed per train: experimentally, I see the 1 travel about 25% faster when empty than when full, which means that when it's full, it costs 25% more than when it's empty to run trains at a given frequency. I believe that when you divide the average passenger loads by the farebox recovery ratio, you get that any train with more than 36 people per car makes a profit for the MTA. Harlan, both costs and revenues rise with ridership, but revenues rise faster.

Energy is mostly fixed: at current crush loads (~75% of capacity), the train weighs 33% more than when empty.

Labor costs are also mostly fixed per train: experimentally, I see the 1 travel about 25% faster when empty than when full, which means that when it’s full, it costs 25% more than when it’s empty to run trains at a given frequency.

I believe that when you divide the average passenger loads by the farebox recovery ratio, you get that any train with more than 36 people per car makes a profit for the MTA.

]]> By: Benjamin Kabak http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/24/making-the-case-for-open-transit-data/#comment-64969 Benjamin Kabak Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:06:24 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3914#comment-64969 <em>It’s not in the MTA management’s interest to increase ridership.</em> While I agree with the rest of your comment, Harlan, I think you're wrong there. The MTA isn't a private or publicly-held for-profit corporation. It is a public benefit corporation established as a state authority. Its mandate, per <a href="http://law.justia.com/newyork/codes/public-authorities/pba01264_1264.html" rel="nofollow">its charter</a>, is "the continuance, further development and improvement of commuter transportation and other services related thereto within the metropolitan commuter transportation district." It's not supposed to make money; it's supposed to encourage more ridership. It’s not in the MTA management’s interest to increase ridership.

While I agree with the rest of your comment, Harlan, I think you’re wrong there. The MTA isn’t a private or publicly-held for-profit corporation. It is a public benefit corporation established as a state authority. Its mandate, per its charter, is “the continuance, further development and improvement of commuter transportation and other services related thereto within the metropolitan commuter transportation district.” It’s not supposed to make money; it’s supposed to encourage more ridership.

]]> By: Rolando http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/24/making-the-case-for-open-transit-data/#comment-64968 Rolando Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:53:07 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3914#comment-64968 Anyone curious as to why open transit data matters or interested in helping the city stay on the cutting edge of public transportation should join the discussion going on at <a href="http://nytransitdata.org/" rel="nofollow">http://nytransitdata.org/</a>. Anyone curious as to why open transit data matters or interested in helping the city stay on the cutting edge of public transportation should join the discussion going on at http://nytransitdata.org/.

]]> By: Kid Twist http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/24/making-the-case-for-open-transit-data/#comment-64966 Kid Twist Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:24:45 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3914#comment-64966 Labor is one of the MTA's biggest costs. It costs less per employee to move a jam-packed train than an empty one. Labor is one of the MTA’s biggest costs. It costs less per employee to move a jam-packed train than an empty one.

]]> By: Harlan http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/09/24/making-the-case-for-open-transit-data/#comment-64965 Harlan Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:14:24 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=3914#comment-64965 Yeah, but the incentives are all wrong. The MTA doesn't get revenue with every customer, it <em>loses</em> revenue with every customer. If the trains were perfectly empty, they'd run on time, they'd be clean, they'd require less energy to move, and the MTA would have much lower expenses. It's not in the MTA management's interest to increase ridership. Riders are pains in the ass. The way to change this would be for government subsidies to be explicitly dependent on ridership. Instead of a fixed amount every year, they get paid $1 or whatever for every subway rider. Yeah, but the incentives are all wrong. The MTA doesn’t get revenue with every customer, it loses revenue with every customer. If the trains were perfectly empty, they’d run on time, they’d be clean, they’d require less energy to move, and the MTA would have much lower expenses. It’s not in the MTA management’s interest to increase ridership. Riders are pains in the ass. The way to change this would be for government subsidies to be explicitly dependent on ridership. Instead of a fixed amount every year, they get paid $1 or whatever for every subway rider.

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