Comments on: Musings on the role of buses in cities http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/10/musings-on-the-role-of-buses-in-cities/ A New York City Subway Blog Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:46:25 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Andrew http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/10/musings-on-the-role-of-buses-in-cities/#comment-66819 Andrew Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:55:42 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4225#comment-66819 Nobody's denying that buses are important. That doesn't mean that a bus route that happens to have one terminal at Penn Station and the other terminal at the Cloisters is in any way useful for trips from Penn Station to the Cloisters. The M4 doesn't take a direct path - it swings over to the East Side and then back to the West Side. That's entirely by design - the actual function of the M4 is to connect Penn Station to the East Side, and to connect the East Side to Morningside Heights, and to serve local trips along 5th/Madison and upper Broadway and Fort Washington Avenue. If you're in a wheelchair and you want to get from Penn Station to the Cloisters, you can take the A train from 34th Street to 175th Street (both stations with elevators) and then transfer to the M4 for its last mile and change. That'll get you there in a fraction of the time of taking the M4 the whole way. Or if you <i>really</i> want to get there by bus, walk a block east to 34th and 6th and take the M5 most of the way - the M5 takes a far more direct route and runs limited on weekdays. Google Maps shows a 23-minute savings by taking the M5 to 163rd Street and transferring, assuming a 5-minute wait at the transfer point. Finally, why does a route like the M4 take so long to get from one end to the other? Because it makes a lot of closely spaced stops. Whenever NYCT tries to space bus stops more widely, the elderly and disabled groups complain that they want closer stops. An 11-mile route is going to take a long time to get from one end to the other if it stops every two or three blocks. So - which do you prefer, faster service or frequent stops? You can't get both. Nobody’s denying that buses are important. That doesn’t mean that a bus route that happens to have one terminal at Penn Station and the other terminal at the Cloisters is in any way useful for trips from Penn Station to the Cloisters. The M4 doesn’t take a direct path – it swings over to the East Side and then back to the West Side. That’s entirely by design – the actual function of the M4 is to connect Penn Station to the East Side, and to connect the East Side to Morningside Heights, and to serve local trips along 5th/Madison and upper Broadway and Fort Washington Avenue.

If you’re in a wheelchair and you want to get from Penn Station to the Cloisters, you can take the A train from 34th Street to 175th Street (both stations with elevators) and then transfer to the M4 for its last mile and change. That’ll get you there in a fraction of the time of taking the M4 the whole way. Or if you really want to get there by bus, walk a block east to 34th and 6th and take the M5 most of the way – the M5 takes a far more direct route and runs limited on weekdays. Google Maps shows a 23-minute savings by taking the M5 to 163rd Street and transferring, assuming a 5-minute wait at the transfer point.

Finally, why does a route like the M4 take so long to get from one end to the other? Because it makes a lot of closely spaced stops. Whenever NYCT tries to space bus stops more widely, the elderly and disabled groups complain that they want closer stops. An 11-mile route is going to take a long time to get from one end to the other if it stops every two or three blocks. So – which do you prefer, faster service or frequent stops? You can’t get both.

]]> By: Elizabeth http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/10/musings-on-the-role-of-buses-in-cities/#comment-66790 Elizabeth Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:32:46 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4225#comment-66790 I'd like to add to what a couple of people have already said about the importance of buses for people who can't negotiate subway stairs. (Many stations don't have elevators, and at those that do, the elevator is often out of service.) If there are no elevators at the beginning and end of my trip, I take a bus. I do it because I have arthritic knees, and I have noticed that many other people besides wheelchair users take elevators: the elderly, the injured, the obsese, people with baby carriages, people with heavy shopping bags, people with luggage. These same people will mostly take the bus if there's no elevator available. I’d like to add to what a couple of people have already said about the importance of buses for people who can’t negotiate subway stairs. (Many stations don’t have elevators, and at those that do, the elevator is often out of service.) If there are no elevators at the beginning and end of my trip, I take a bus. I do it because I have arthritic knees, and I have noticed that many other people besides wheelchair users take elevators: the elderly, the injured, the obsese, people with baby carriages, people with heavy shopping bags, people with luggage. These same people will mostly take the bus if there’s no elevator available.

]]> By: Andrew http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/10/musings-on-the-role-of-buses-in-cities/#comment-66633 Andrew Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:56:55 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4225#comment-66633 But what does any of that have to do with the M4? Yes, there are long, slow routes that people have to ride from start to finish just to reach the subway. But the M4 is not among them. There is no reason that anyone for whom time is even the slightest concern would ride the M4 from start to finish. I have no problem with the Pokeys or the Schleppies. Speed and reliability affect bus riders whether they ride an entire route or just a small segment. But end-to-end running time is only relevant on routes that carry many passengers from end to end. What would be more interesting (and much more of a challenge to determine) is the bus route with the longest running time for its average rider. But what does any of that have to do with the M4?

Yes, there are long, slow routes that people have to ride from start to finish just to reach the subway. But the M4 is not among them. There is no reason that anyone for whom time is even the slightest concern would ride the M4 from start to finish.

I have no problem with the Pokeys or the Schleppies. Speed and reliability affect bus riders whether they ride an entire route or just a small segment. But end-to-end running time is only relevant on routes that carry many passengers from end to end.

What would be more interesting (and much more of a challenge to determine) is the bus route with the longest running time for its average rider.

]]> By: Wiley Norvell http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/10/musings-on-the-role-of-buses-in-cities/#comment-66609 Wiley Norvell Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:36:11 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4225#comment-66609 The metric behind the Trekkie Award isn’t one of distance; it’s one of time. It’s true that buses fill a much-need niche in the transportation network by facilitating shorter trips, but for many populations and many neighborhoods they are the sum-total of public transportation. Buses are not just an extension of the subway system, they bear the full weight of a subway system that never expanded citywide and that to this day remains more or less inaccessible to the disabled and frail elderly. The Pokeys, Schleppies and Trekkies aren’t about bashing buses or the MTA; they shine a spotlight on desultory bus service that most New Yorkers simply accept as inevitable. In the case of the Trekkies, the purpose is advocate on behalf of those for whom 90-minute or 2-hour bus commutes are a reality. Wait for an M15 during rush hour and you’ll understand just how many long-distance commuters rely on local buses, and need improved service. While many of us have the luxury of only stepping on a bus for a few blocks at a time, many of our neighbors watch the hours tick by stuck in traffic, and they deserve help. Wiley Norvell Transportation Alternatives The metric behind the Trekkie Award isn’t one of distance; it’s one of time. It’s true that buses fill a much-need niche in the transportation network by facilitating shorter trips, but for many populations and many neighborhoods they are the sum-total of public transportation. Buses are not just an extension of the subway system, they bear the full weight of a subway system that never expanded citywide and that to this day remains more or less inaccessible to the disabled and frail elderly.

The Pokeys, Schleppies and Trekkies aren’t about bashing buses or the MTA; they shine a spotlight on desultory bus service that most New Yorkers simply accept as inevitable. In the case of the Trekkies, the purpose is advocate on behalf of those for whom 90-minute or 2-hour bus commutes are a reality. Wait for an M15 during rush hour and you’ll understand just how many long-distance commuters rely on local buses, and need improved service. While many of us have the luxury of only stepping on a bus for a few blocks at a time, many of our neighbors watch the hours tick by stuck in traffic, and they deserve help.

Wiley Norvell
Transportation Alternatives

]]> By: rhywun http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/10/musings-on-the-role-of-buses-in-cities/#comment-66592 rhywun Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:03:00 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4225#comment-66592 Also, one of the reasons cited for why the 7 always gets the highest grades (and this was even before they got new trains) was the fact it is a short route. Also, one of the reasons cited for why the 7 always gets the highest grades (and this was even before they got new trains) was the fact it is a short route.

]]> By: rhywun http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/10/musings-on-the-role-of-buses-in-cities/#comment-66591 rhywun Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:00:09 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4225#comment-66591 Alon's right--there's no relation between speed and frequency of service. The reason the B63 is so slow is because 5th Avenue is a very busy commercial thoroughfare with tons of traffic and cross streets (and a traffic light at every one of them). Of course, that describes most bus routes in the city so I'm not sure why that particular route is any slower than the others.... Alon’s right–there’s no relation between speed and frequency of service. The reason the B63 is so slow is because 5th Avenue is a very busy commercial thoroughfare with tons of traffic and cross streets (and a traffic light at every one of them). Of course, that describes most bus routes in the city so I’m not sure why that particular route is any slower than the others….

]]> By: SEAN http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/10/musings-on-the-role-of-buses-in-cities/#comment-66589 SEAN Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:12:59 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4225#comment-66589 In Orange County CA, the OCTA runs a route from Long Beach south through the county to I believe Newport Beach or somewhere near there. The run time is over 2.5 hours one way. The required the route to be split into two segments. In Orange County CA, the OCTA runs a route from Long Beach south through the county to I believe Newport Beach or somewhere near there. The run time is over 2.5 hours one way. The required the route to be split into two segments.

]]> By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/10/musings-on-the-role-of-buses-in-cities/#comment-66588 Alon Levy Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:09:51 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4225#comment-66588 If New York City Transit wants to be accessible, it should spend the money on getting the elevators on the subway to work - and to install them in more than just 100 key stations. If New York City Transit wants to be accessible, it should spend the money on getting the elevators on the subway to work – and to install them in more than just 100 key stations.

]]> By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/10/musings-on-the-role-of-buses-in-cities/#comment-66587 Alon Levy Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:08:03 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4225#comment-66587 Jerrold, people most definitely do complain about long subway routes. On the Straphangers boards, it's a commonplace that the R sucks because it's the longest local in the system, leading to delays upon delays. Jerrold, people most definitely do complain about long subway routes. On the Straphangers boards, it’s a commonplace that the R sucks because it’s the longest local in the system, leading to delays upon delays.

]]> By: Jerrold http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/10/musings-on-the-role-of-buses-in-cities/#comment-66585 Jerrold Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:44:58 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4225#comment-66585 28 blocks, almost a mile and a half? Maybe you're young and healthy. Not everyone is young, and not everyone is healthy. This somehow reminds me of how some people argue that Down escalators are a ridiculous waste of energy and should all be permanently turned off. 28 blocks, almost a mile and a half?
Maybe you’re young and healthy.
Not everyone is young, and not everyone is healthy.

This somehow reminds me of how some people argue that Down
escalators are a ridiculous waste of energy and should all be permanently turned off.

]]>