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	<title>Comments on: Feds to push for local transit safety oversight</title>
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	<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/16/feds-to-push-for-local-transit-safety-oversight/</link>
	<description>A New York City Subway Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 05:03:54 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: The ills of an unfunded federal mandate :: Second Ave. Sagas</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/16/feds-to-push-for-local-transit-safety-oversight/#comment-73486</link>
		<dc:creator>The ills of an unfunded federal mandate :: Second Ave. Sagas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 07:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4264#comment-73486</guid>
		<description>[...] I examined how, in the wake of recent WMATA collisions in Washington D.C., the FTA was considering implementing local transit safety oversight measures that would require a higher level of safety standards than necessary. The costs would fall on the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I examined how, in the wake of recent WMATA collisions in Washington D.C., the FTA was considering implementing local transit safety oversight measures that would require a higher level of safety standards than necessary. The costs would fall on the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Times vs. Second Ave. Sagas: Federal transit safety oversight :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/16/feds-to-push-for-local-transit-safety-oversight/#comment-67320</link>
		<dc:creator>Times vs. Second Ave. Sagas: Federal transit safety oversight :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4264#comment-67320</guid>
		<description>[...] plan to promulgate federal regulations for local transit agencies. At the time, I was vehemently opposed to the regulations on three grounds, and I remain convinced of that position despite a recent [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] plan to promulgate federal regulations for local transit agencies. At the time, I was vehemently opposed to the regulations on three grounds, and I remain convinced of that position despite a recent [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A correction on Access-a-Ride :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/16/feds-to-push-for-local-transit-safety-oversight/#comment-66976</link>
		<dc:creator>A correction on Access-a-Ride :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4264#comment-66976</guid>
		<description>[...] a way, then, we can take a lesson from this program and apply to the feds&#8217; desires for more oversight over local transit safety. If that effort ends up as another federally unfunded mandate, transit agencies and local [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a way, then, we can take a lesson from this program and apply to the feds&#8217; desires for more oversight over local transit safety. If that effort ends up as another federally unfunded mandate, transit agencies and local [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nathanael Nerode</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/16/feds-to-push-for-local-transit-safety-oversight/#comment-66945</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathanael Nerode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 04:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4264#comment-66945</guid>
		<description>Also, it&#039;s worth noting that the DC Metro crash -- the impetus for this -- was caused by really, *really* terrible design.  The system *wasn&#039;t fail-safe*.  The problem was identified *decades* ago.  BART had the same problem and *fixed it* decades ago.

If the federal safety standards simply amounted to &quot;Use a failsafe signal system design for speeds over 30 mph and automated train operations&quot;, or even &quot;Do something to fix it when a problem with your system design is identified&quot;, they&#039;d be fine.  Somehow I expect the federal standards wouldn&#039;t be that simple and straightforward, though.  :-(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, it&#8217;s worth noting that the DC Metro crash &#8212; the impetus for this &#8212; was caused by really, *really* terrible design.  The system *wasn&#8217;t fail-safe*.  The problem was identified *decades* ago.  BART had the same problem and *fixed it* decades ago.</p>
<p>If the federal safety standards simply amounted to &#8220;Use a failsafe signal system design for speeds over 30 mph and automated train operations&#8221;, or even &#8220;Do something to fix it when a problem with your system design is identified&#8221;, they&#8217;d be fine.  Somehow I expect the federal standards wouldn&#8217;t be that simple and straightforward, though.  <img src='http://secondavenuesagas.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/16/feds-to-push-for-local-transit-safety-oversight/#comment-66808</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4264#comment-66808</guid>
		<description>Besides the fact that the commuter rail standards are stupid as well, rapid transit is different in that it doesn&#039;t share tracks with freight. All trains running on the subway have positive train control - if the engineer runs a red light, the train stops. On American commuter lines, it&#039;s not true - the passenger trains are subject to PTC, but the freight trains aren&#039;t, leading to different safety specs.

Mind you, even with this caveat, the FRA and FTA are as competent as Michael Brown, so any system they&#039;d design is likely to be bad. Unless the feds have a very good reason not to use the train control systems of Japan or Europe, they shouldn&#039;t try to invent things. Third world countries rarely do well when they try to reinvent the wheel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Besides the fact that the commuter rail standards are stupid as well, rapid transit is different in that it doesn&#8217;t share tracks with freight. All trains running on the subway have positive train control &#8211; if the engineer runs a red light, the train stops. On American commuter lines, it&#8217;s not true &#8211; the passenger trains are subject to PTC, but the freight trains aren&#8217;t, leading to different safety specs.</p>
<p>Mind you, even with this caveat, the FRA and FTA are as competent as Michael Brown, so any system they&#8217;d design is likely to be bad. Unless the feds have a very good reason not to use the train control systems of Japan or Europe, they shouldn&#8217;t try to invent things. Third world countries rarely do well when they try to reinvent the wheel.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/16/feds-to-push-for-local-transit-safety-oversight/#comment-66807</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4264#comment-66807</guid>
		<description>Josh, you&#039;re wrong. Caltrain did simulations, and found that lightweight, off-the-shelf trains perform better on crashes with heavy freight trains than FRA-compliant behemoths do. The extra weight makes the trains more likely to derail and topple, making them less safe. The FRA pulled the buff strength regulations out of thin air in the 1930s, making up a figure for how much force the trains needed to endure without ever checking what was necessary and what would improve safety.

In Europe, the reason they don&#039;t have those rules is that instead of buff strength, they invest in signaling that prevents accidents. European and Asian trains, and most American passenger trains, have positive train control technology, which ensures that if the engineer drives too fast or runs a red light, the train&#039;s computer will override him and stop the train or slow it down. The New York City Subway has had such a system from the beginning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, you&#8217;re wrong. Caltrain did simulations, and found that lightweight, off-the-shelf trains perform better on crashes with heavy freight trains than FRA-compliant behemoths do. The extra weight makes the trains more likely to derail and topple, making them less safe. The FRA pulled the buff strength regulations out of thin air in the 1930s, making up a figure for how much force the trains needed to endure without ever checking what was necessary and what would improve safety.</p>
<p>In Europe, the reason they don&#8217;t have those rules is that instead of buff strength, they invest in signaling that prevents accidents. European and Asian trains, and most American passenger trains, have positive train control technology, which ensures that if the engineer drives too fast or runs a red light, the train&#8217;s computer will override him and stop the train or slow it down. The New York City Subway has had such a system from the beginning.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/16/feds-to-push-for-local-transit-safety-oversight/#comment-66792</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4264#comment-66792</guid>
		<description>Exactly. To get true high speed rail in this country, it would need to be on separate tracks from the freight trains. If this ever were to happen, the weight restrictions would (probably) be different. And even if they weren&#039;t, the trains could still go faster than they do now. The reason trains can&#039;t go faster is because of the design and grade of the tracks, and the fact that they&#039;re shared with freight, not the weight of the trains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly. To get true high speed rail in this country, it would need to be on separate tracks from the freight trains. If this ever were to happen, the weight restrictions would (probably) be different. And even if they weren&#8217;t, the trains could still go faster than they do now. The reason trains can&#8217;t go faster is because of the design and grade of the tracks, and the fact that they&#8217;re shared with freight, not the weight of the trains.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh K</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/16/feds-to-push-for-local-transit-safety-oversight/#comment-66788</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4264#comment-66788</guid>
		<description>Most passenger trains in the US are co-mingled with freight trains on the same tracks. In Europe, freight an passenger rail are frequently segregated and their freight trains aren&#039;t as massive as ours. US freight trains are currently allowed to have up 386,000 lbs. per axle loading on most mainline tracks, such as the CSX mainline through upstate NY. This higher axle loading is what allows the freight companies to achieve the efficiencies that makes them more environmentally friendly and cost competitive. With well over 100 cars per train, that&#039;s a HUGE amount of inertia rolling around at 50mph. Even with all the safety signaling systems in the world, if one of those bumped into a light-weight high speed rail train, of similar construction to those in Europe, the results would be horrific.

The extra weight that ends up in US passenger rail cars is extra metal to strengthen the car in case it does try to occupy the same three dimensional space as a freight train. Who&#039;s going to win in a Mack truck versus a Honda Civic - the Mack Truck. But a Mack Truck versus a Chevy Suburban is a different story, even though both SUVs and sedans are designed with many safety features, in the end it still comes down to basic physics.

What they need to do to make HSR viable here in the US is get together enough money for a large enough system to place a big order to justify the R&amp;D of a US compliant HSR train. That means big money. I say we cut out 10% of the military budget for 10 years and we&#039;ll easily have the money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most passenger trains in the US are co-mingled with freight trains on the same tracks. In Europe, freight an passenger rail are frequently segregated and their freight trains aren&#8217;t as massive as ours. US freight trains are currently allowed to have up 386,000 lbs. per axle loading on most mainline tracks, such as the CSX mainline through upstate NY. This higher axle loading is what allows the freight companies to achieve the efficiencies that makes them more environmentally friendly and cost competitive. With well over 100 cars per train, that&#8217;s a HUGE amount of inertia rolling around at 50mph. Even with all the safety signaling systems in the world, if one of those bumped into a light-weight high speed rail train, of similar construction to those in Europe, the results would be horrific.</p>
<p>The extra weight that ends up in US passenger rail cars is extra metal to strengthen the car in case it does try to occupy the same three dimensional space as a freight train. Who&#8217;s going to win in a Mack truck versus a Honda Civic &#8211; the Mack Truck. But a Mack Truck versus a Chevy Suburban is a different story, even though both SUVs and sedans are designed with many safety features, in the end it still comes down to basic physics.</p>
<p>What they need to do to make HSR viable here in the US is get together enough money for a large enough system to place a big order to justify the R&amp;D of a US compliant HSR train. That means big money. I say we cut out 10% of the military budget for 10 years and we&#8217;ll easily have the money.</p>
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		<title>By: Streetsblog San Francisco &#187; Hesitation and Praise Greet Obama Administration&#8217;s Transit Safety Plan</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/16/feds-to-push-for-local-transit-safety-oversight/#comment-66787</link>
		<dc:creator>Streetsblog San Francisco &#187; Hesitation and Praise Greet Obama Administration&#8217;s Transit Safety Plan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4264#comment-66787</guid>
		<description>[...] &quot;strong and independent safety oversight [is] already in place in New York.” And pushback has begun against the notion that national transit safety rules are called for given a recent uptick in the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &quot;strong and independent safety oversight [is] already in place in New York.” And pushback has begun against the notion that national transit safety rules are called for given a recent uptick in the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Kabak</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/11/16/feds-to-push-for-local-transit-safety-oversight/#comment-66784</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Kabak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4264#comment-66784</guid>
		<description>Well, if you read the post closely, you&#039;ll see that I don&#039;t think the safety standards are beneficial for commuter rail lines. Those, however, won&#039;t be repealed any time soon. Why make a less-than-ideal situation worse?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, if you read the post closely, you&#8217;ll see that I don&#8217;t think the safety standards are beneficial for commuter rail lines. Those, however, won&#8217;t be repealed any time soon. Why make a less-than-ideal situation worse?</p>
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