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	<title>Comments on: After $200M state error, a $343M MTA shortfall</title>
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	<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/07/after-200-million-state-error-a-343-million-mta-shortfall/</link>
	<description>A New York City Subway Blog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:59:49 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: To save money, MTA may axe Student MetroCards :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/07/after-200-million-state-error-a-343-million-mta-shortfall/#comment-68146</link>
		<dc:creator>To save money, MTA may axe Student MetroCards :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 06:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4465#comment-68146</guid>
		<description>[...] the TWU&#8217;s arbitration award, the payroll tax short fall and the state appropriations cut, the MTA may face a budget gap as large as $500 million this year, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the TWU&#8217;s arbitration award, the payroll tax short fall and the state appropriations cut, the MTA may face a budget gap as large as $500 million this year, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/07/after-200-million-state-error-a-343-million-mta-shortfall/#comment-68139</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 23:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4465#comment-68139</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m afraid you&#039;ve lost me on the congestion pricing question.  Cars pollute wherever they operate, but the pollution has a greater direct impact when it&#039;s in close proximity to a lot of people.  And congestion pricing fees don&#039;t only push drivers from the CBD to other areas - they also push drivers onto other modes.  

And how about the other externalities I mentioned?  Slower service for transit riders, longer delivery times, noise, safety, public space?

I&#039;d love to see walk-through trains - but I&#039;m afraid this isn&#039;t as simple as calling Kawasaki and asking for it.  The cars first need to be designed - and they need to be designed in a way that will work with the NYCT system.

Pushers won&#039;t help at Grand Central - they are a solution to the wrong problem.  The problem at Grand Central is not that crowded trains pull in and more people want to get on - that&#039;s a relatively minor problem, and it happens all over the system.  The problem at Grand Central is that crowded trains pull in and a lot of people want to get &lt;b&gt;off&lt;/b&gt; as well as on.  So the people getting off have to squeeze through the thick crowds while the people outside are starting to impatiently push their way on.  The more crowded the train when it arrives at Grand Central, the harder it is for people trapped in the middle to get out.  If loads at the north end of the line are reduced just a bit (say, by diverting some riders to a new subway line a few blocks to the east), then the people getting off at Grand Central encounter less resistance, and dwell times are reduced, and service can be increased.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid you&#8217;ve lost me on the congestion pricing question.  Cars pollute wherever they operate, but the pollution has a greater direct impact when it&#8217;s in close proximity to a lot of people.  And congestion pricing fees don&#8217;t only push drivers from the CBD to other areas &#8211; they also push drivers onto other modes.  </p>
<p>And how about the other externalities I mentioned?  Slower service for transit riders, longer delivery times, noise, safety, public space?</p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to see walk-through trains &#8211; but I&#8217;m afraid this isn&#8217;t as simple as calling Kawasaki and asking for it.  The cars first need to be designed &#8211; and they need to be designed in a way that will work with the NYCT system.</p>
<p>Pushers won&#8217;t help at Grand Central &#8211; they are a solution to the wrong problem.  The problem at Grand Central is not that crowded trains pull in and more people want to get on &#8211; that&#8217;s a relatively minor problem, and it happens all over the system.  The problem at Grand Central is that crowded trains pull in and a lot of people want to get <b>off</b> as well as on.  So the people getting off have to squeeze through the thick crowds while the people outside are starting to impatiently push their way on.  The more crowded the train when it arrives at Grand Central, the harder it is for people trapped in the middle to get out.  If loads at the north end of the line are reduced just a bit (say, by diverting some riders to a new subway line a few blocks to the east), then the people getting off at Grand Central encounter less resistance, and dwell times are reduced, and service can be increased.</p>
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		<title>By: Kruger blames the MTA for Albany&#8217;s mistake :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/07/after-200-million-state-error-a-343-million-mta-shortfall/#comment-67928</link>
		<dc:creator>Kruger blames the MTA for Albany&#8217;s mistake :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 06:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4465#comment-67928</guid>
		<description>[...] and politicians who control the purse strings. As the MTA has come to grips this week with a state calculation error of $200 million that will leave a hole in the MTA&#8217;s budget, politicians have tried to avoid taking any [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and politicians who control the purse strings. As the MTA has come to grips this week with a state calculation error of $200 million that will leave a hole in the MTA&#8217;s budget, politicians have tried to avoid taking any [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/07/after-200-million-state-error-a-343-million-mta-shortfall/#comment-67914</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4465#comment-67914</guid>
		<description>The other externalities of driving are not balanced by congestion pricing. Cars pollute regardless of whether they&#039;re in a congested CBD or in a less congested neighborhood. Other countries balance that with a gas tax on the order of $3-4 per gallon and with regulations mandating newer cars with catalytic converters. Congestion pricing is a CBD-specific technique for reducing congestion.

The Lexington line is crowded because the MTA is making little effort to run it at its true capacity. It uses 3-door cars where Tokyo runs 6-door, 20-meter cars, making boarding easier. It also uses individual cars instead of walk-through trains, which would increase capacity. The MTA isn&#039;t making any attempt to either get Japanese-style pushers, or get people to push themselves as in China, which would allow trains to run 100% over official capacity instead of 13%. All of this costs peanuts; it would have cost zero extra money if the MTA had had the foresight to write multi-door, walk-through specs into the R142 order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other externalities of driving are not balanced by congestion pricing. Cars pollute regardless of whether they&#8217;re in a congested CBD or in a less congested neighborhood. Other countries balance that with a gas tax on the order of $3-4 per gallon and with regulations mandating newer cars with catalytic converters. Congestion pricing is a CBD-specific technique for reducing congestion.</p>
<p>The Lexington line is crowded because the MTA is making little effort to run it at its true capacity. It uses 3-door cars where Tokyo runs 6-door, 20-meter cars, making boarding easier. It also uses individual cars instead of walk-through trains, which would increase capacity. The MTA isn&#8217;t making any attempt to either get Japanese-style pushers, or get people to push themselves as in China, which would allow trains to run 100% over official capacity instead of 13%. All of this costs peanuts; it would have cost zero extra money if the MTA had had the foresight to write multi-door, walk-through specs into the R142 order.</p>
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		<title>By: With service cuts looming, a look at the last proposal :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/07/after-200-million-state-error-a-343-million-mta-shortfall/#comment-67888</link>
		<dc:creator>With service cuts looming, a look at the last proposal :: Second Ave. Sagas &#124; A New York City Subway Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 07:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4465#comment-67888</guid>
		<description>[...] news broke early Monday evening that the Albany bailout of the MTA would fall $200 million short of expectations, officials at the MTA began to scramble. At the time, agency representations could not comment on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] news broke early Monday evening that the Albany bailout of the MTA would fall $200 million short of expectations, officials at the MTA began to scramble. At the time, agency representations could not comment on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: rhywun</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/07/after-200-million-state-error-a-343-million-mta-shortfall/#comment-67884</link>
		<dc:creator>rhywun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 04:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4465#comment-67884</guid>
		<description>Correct me if I&#039;m wrong, but the MTA couldn&#039;t balance their budget in the bad old days before unlimited rides, either. You&#039;re going to hate this, but the real solution is to extract concessions from the union to bring benefits more in line with the private sector that the vast majority of riders are used to. No more unexcused absences, no more guaranteed pensions, no more getting paid for doing nothing. And NO I don&#039;t blame the workers for this situation, I blame the MTA management for failing to negotiate properly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but the MTA couldn&#8217;t balance their budget in the bad old days before unlimited rides, either. You&#8217;re going to hate this, but the real solution is to extract concessions from the union to bring benefits more in line with the private sector that the vast majority of riders are used to. No more unexcused absences, no more guaranteed pensions, no more getting paid for doing nothing. And NO I don&#8217;t blame the workers for this situation, I blame the MTA management for failing to negotiate properly.</p>
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		<title>By: rhywun</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/07/after-200-million-state-error-a-343-million-mta-shortfall/#comment-67883</link>
		<dc:creator>rhywun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 04:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4465#comment-67883</guid>
		<description>The current fare is peanuts to the average New Yorker (median household income: $32,000). The fact is, transit fares have historically been priced at poverty levels, because transit is seen as something that only poor people use. That clearly isn&#039;t the case in NYC.

Cutting service is simply not acceptable, for the reasons stated above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The current fare is peanuts to the average New Yorker (median household income: $32,000). The fact is, transit fares have historically been priced at poverty levels, because transit is seen as something that only poor people use. That clearly isn&#8217;t the case in NYC.</p>
<p>Cutting service is simply not acceptable, for the reasons stated above.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/07/after-200-million-state-error-a-343-million-mta-shortfall/#comment-67879</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 03:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4465#comment-67879</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;WHAT?!&lt;/b&gt;

A crowded train tends to spend more time in stations as people try to push off and on, thereby slowing down service for everyone on the train and everyone on the trains behind it.  One of the justifications for SAS is that dwell times at Grand Central are so long that, not only do they slow down service, but they actually reduce the overall capacity of the line!

And when people are left behind on platforms because they cannot fit onto a train (whether that train is truly crush loaded or it has some air bubbles in the middle that are inaccessible from the platform isn&#039;t entirely relevant, except that, in the long term, it might be feasible to train people to fill in air bubbles), that certainly slows them down - they now have to wait for the next train, which may not be any emptier.

Incidentally, your premise is false.  Cars also slow down buses (carrying people who don&#039;t own cars or are choosing not to use them) and trucks (carrying deliveries to people regardless of whether they drive).  Cars pollute the air and make noise.  Cars injure and kill pedestrians and bicyclists.  Cars occupy a lot of public space in a very space-constrained area; with fewer cars, some of that public space could be reallocated in a more equitable fashion.  Those are all externalities that congestion pricing could offset.

And who named you sole arbiter of which social problems the government should and should not solve?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>WHAT?!</b></p>
<p>A crowded train tends to spend more time in stations as people try to push off and on, thereby slowing down service for everyone on the train and everyone on the trains behind it.  One of the justifications for SAS is that dwell times at Grand Central are so long that, not only do they slow down service, but they actually reduce the overall capacity of the line!</p>
<p>And when people are left behind on platforms because they cannot fit onto a train (whether that train is truly crush loaded or it has some air bubbles in the middle that are inaccessible from the platform isn&#8217;t entirely relevant, except that, in the long term, it might be feasible to train people to fill in air bubbles), that certainly slows them down &#8211; they now have to wait for the next train, which may not be any emptier.</p>
<p>Incidentally, your premise is false.  Cars also slow down buses (carrying people who don&#8217;t own cars or are choosing not to use them) and trucks (carrying deliveries to people regardless of whether they drive).  Cars pollute the air and make noise.  Cars injure and kill pedestrians and bicyclists.  Cars occupy a lot of public space in a very space-constrained area; with fewer cars, some of that public space could be reallocated in a more equitable fashion.  Those are all externalities that congestion pricing could offset.</p>
<p>And who named you sole arbiter of which social problems the government should and should not solve?</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/07/after-200-million-state-error-a-343-million-mta-shortfall/#comment-67877</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 03:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4465#comment-67877</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re assuming that everybody who lives within the so-called CBD is wealthy.  That&#039;s most certainly not the case.

You&#039;re assuming that nobody who lives outside the so-called CBD is wealthy.  That&#039;s most certainly not the case.

And you&#039;re assuming that every subway ride either begins or ends at home.  That&#039;s most certainly not the case.

(And I&#039;ve never heard the CBD defined as starting as far north as 86th St.!)

If you want to charge the rich more than the poor, then do just that.  Don&#039;t make assumptions about where the rich go and where the poor go, because there are bound to be plenty of exceptions - rich people who you will be undercharging and, worse, poor people who you will be overcharging.

I would be absolutely in favor of raising the fare substantially while simultaneously providing some sort of transit allowance (think of food stamps) to those who truly can&#039;t afford the fare.  Come to think of it, if the transit allowance could also be used to pay tolls and other driving fees, that would put to rest the claim that bridge tolls and congestion pricing are regressive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re assuming that everybody who lives within the so-called CBD is wealthy.  That&#8217;s most certainly not the case.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re assuming that nobody who lives outside the so-called CBD is wealthy.  That&#8217;s most certainly not the case.</p>
<p>And you&#8217;re assuming that every subway ride either begins or ends at home.  That&#8217;s most certainly not the case.</p>
<p>(And I&#8217;ve never heard the CBD defined as starting as far north as 86th St.!)</p>
<p>If you want to charge the rich more than the poor, then do just that.  Don&#8217;t make assumptions about where the rich go and where the poor go, because there are bound to be plenty of exceptions &#8211; rich people who you will be undercharging and, worse, poor people who you will be overcharging.</p>
<p>I would be absolutely in favor of raising the fare substantially while simultaneously providing some sort of transit allowance (think of food stamps) to those who truly can&#8217;t afford the fare.  Come to think of it, if the transit allowance could also be used to pay tolls and other driving fees, that would put to rest the claim that bridge tolls and congestion pricing are regressive.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/07/after-200-million-state-error-a-343-million-mta-shortfall/#comment-67876</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 02:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4465#comment-67876</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure what your point is.  Someone traveling from Flushing to Canal St. is riding a greater distance in the Manhattan CBD than someone traveling from Union Square to Canal St.  So why should the second person pay &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt; than the first?

I don&#039;t agree that distance-based fares don&#039;t make sense due to socioeconomics - there are plenty of poor people who take short trips and plenty of wealthy people who take long trips, and currently those poor people are effectively subsidizing those wealthy people.  The only way to avoid that is through means testing of some sort.

Distance-based fares don&#039;t make sense right now because outer borough politicians would have a fit and because most stations would have to be seriously redesigned to provide enough turnstiles for exit swipes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure what your point is.  Someone traveling from Flushing to Canal St. is riding a greater distance in the Manhattan CBD than someone traveling from Union Square to Canal St.  So why should the second person pay <i>more</i> than the first?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t agree that distance-based fares don&#8217;t make sense due to socioeconomics &#8211; there are plenty of poor people who take short trips and plenty of wealthy people who take long trips, and currently those poor people are effectively subsidizing those wealthy people.  The only way to avoid that is through means testing of some sort.</p>
<p>Distance-based fares don&#8217;t make sense right now because outer borough politicians would have a fit and because most stations would have to be seriously redesigned to provide enough turnstiles for exit swipes.</p>
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