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	<title>Comments on: How much is that pension in the window?</title>
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	<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/23/how-much-is-that-pension-in-the-window/</link>
	<description>A New York City Subway Blog</description>
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		<title>By: rhywun</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/23/how-much-is-that-pension-in-the-window/#comment-68833</link>
		<dc:creator>rhywun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 18:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4627#comment-68833</guid>
		<description>Well, I can&#039;t argue against that kind of bias. I&#039;m just a dumb private-sector worker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I can&#8217;t argue against that kind of bias. I&#8217;m just a dumb private-sector worker.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/23/how-much-is-that-pension-in-the-window/#comment-68819</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4627#comment-68819</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think public sector workers are generally more skilled. The public sector jobs seem to be likelier to require college education and universally require high school education; nowadays even NYPD won&#039;t hire you without two years of college or military background.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think public sector workers are generally more skilled. The public sector jobs seem to be likelier to require college education and universally require high school education; nowadays even NYPD won&#8217;t hire you without two years of college or military background.</p>
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		<title>By: Older and Wiser</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/23/how-much-is-that-pension-in-the-window/#comment-68812</link>
		<dc:creator>Older and Wiser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4627#comment-68812</guid>
		<description>A good portion of that $500 + million goes to the MABSTOA pension fund for NYCT employees not covered by NYCERS. That fund is a legacy of the old (private corporation) Fifth Avenue Bus Company, which, like all too many private American companies was on its way to backruptcy before the public sector rescued it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good portion of that $500 + million goes to the MABSTOA pension fund for NYCT employees not covered by NYCERS. That fund is a legacy of the old (private corporation) Fifth Avenue Bus Company, which, like all too many private American companies was on its way to backruptcy before the public sector rescued it.</p>
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		<title>By: rhywun</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/23/how-much-is-that-pension-in-the-window/#comment-68805</link>
		<dc:creator>rhywun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 18:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4627#comment-68805</guid>
		<description>The chart shows &lt;i&gt;averages&lt;/i&gt;. Why do you say you &quot;can&#039;t compare&quot;? Do you think public sector workers are generally more skilled than private sector workers? That&#039;s just silly. I might as well respond with &quot;you can&#039;t compare industrial engineers to city hall office assistants&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The chart shows <i>averages</i>. Why do you say you &#8220;can&#8217;t compare&#8221;? Do you think public sector workers are generally more skilled than private sector workers? That&#8217;s just silly. I might as well respond with &#8220;you can&#8217;t compare industrial engineers to city hall office assistants&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathanael</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/23/how-much-is-that-pension-in-the-window/#comment-68789</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathanael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 05:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4627#comment-68789</guid>
		<description>Yep.  Single-payer health care would strip out a huge portion of this so-called &quot;pension&quot; budget (the &quot;health care&quot; portion).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep.  Single-payer health care would strip out a huge portion of this so-called &#8220;pension&#8221; budget (the &#8220;health care&#8221; portion).</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/23/how-much-is-that-pension-in-the-window/#comment-68774</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 04:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4627#comment-68774</guid>
		<description>What socialist countries are you talking about, precisely? I&#039;m asking because the countries that adopted social democracy the most smoothly - Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, and the Netherlands - have had some of the highest growth rates in Europe in recent years and the lowest unemployment rates, and have not suffered as much from the recession as the pre-recession laissez-faire success stories like Ireland.

Mind you, none of those social democratic successes has anything like the TWU. In the Netherlands, the transit unions strike by not collecting fares but otherwise operating transit normally. And you&#039;ll never hear a Swedish or Danish trade union demand a 4% raise for its members during a recession. Where unions do not have that sense of social responsibility, you get either union-busting and high inequality, as in the US and Britain, or high unemployment and stagnation, as in France and Italy.

The link you give doesn&#039;t control for qualifications or industry. You can&#039;t compare Wal-Mart workers and janitors to subway drivers and soldiers; you need to compare soldiers to private security contractors and subway drivers to freight train operators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What socialist countries are you talking about, precisely? I&#8217;m asking because the countries that adopted social democracy the most smoothly &#8211; Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, and the Netherlands &#8211; have had some of the highest growth rates in Europe in recent years and the lowest unemployment rates, and have not suffered as much from the recession as the pre-recession laissez-faire success stories like Ireland.</p>
<p>Mind you, none of those social democratic successes has anything like the TWU. In the Netherlands, the transit unions strike by not collecting fares but otherwise operating transit normally. And you&#8217;ll never hear a Swedish or Danish trade union demand a 4% raise for its members during a recession. Where unions do not have that sense of social responsibility, you get either union-busting and high inequality, as in the US and Britain, or high unemployment and stagnation, as in France and Italy.</p>
<p>The link you give doesn&#8217;t control for qualifications or industry. You can&#8217;t compare Wal-Mart workers and janitors to subway drivers and soldiers; you need to compare soldiers to private security contractors and subway drivers to freight train operators.</p>
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		<title>By: rhywun</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/23/how-much-is-that-pension-in-the-window/#comment-68749</link>
		<dc:creator>rhywun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 21:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4627#comment-68749</guid>
		<description>Actually, public-sector salaries are now &lt;a href=&quot;http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/21/private-vs-public-sector-pay/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;much higher&lt;/a&gt; than private ones, in addition to the much higher benefits public employees receive. Which isn&#039;t surprising, given the apparently bottomless pit of money (our taxes) from which to draw.

Also, Ben, the retire-at-55 benefit has nothing to do with the &quot;physicality&quot; of labor. All city workers get it, don&#039;t they? It has everything to do with the control that unions have over elected officials in certain parts of the country. The reason these costs are out of control is because our elected officials are out of control--bought and paid for with union donations.

It&#039;s silly to blame the capitalism that so many of you despise--and which has made us a very wealthy and productive country. The socialist countries of your fantasies are suffering the same problems we are--and more quickly, as they too realize that you can&#039;t get something for nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, public-sector salaries are now <a href="http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/21/private-vs-public-sector-pay/" rel="nofollow">much higher</a> than private ones, in addition to the much higher benefits public employees receive. Which isn&#8217;t surprising, given the apparently bottomless pit of money (our taxes) from which to draw.</p>
<p>Also, Ben, the retire-at-55 benefit has nothing to do with the &#8220;physicality&#8221; of labor. All city workers get it, don&#8217;t they? It has everything to do with the control that unions have over elected officials in certain parts of the country. The reason these costs are out of control is because our elected officials are out of control&#8211;bought and paid for with union donations.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s silly to blame the capitalism that so many of you despise&#8211;and which has made us a very wealthy and productive country. The socialist countries of your fantasies are suffering the same problems we are&#8211;and more quickly, as they too realize that you can&#8217;t get something for nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/23/how-much-is-that-pension-in-the-window/#comment-68741</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4627#comment-68741</guid>
		<description>Wal-Mart is an entirely separate issue. It&#039;s not competing for the same pool of workers as the unionized public sector - it&#039;s competing for lower-end workers, who&#039;d be non-union anywhere. The service sector unions are trying to organize those workers; the more established unions don&#039;t care.

Besides, Wal-Mart&#039;s labor standards aren&#039;t that bad by the standards of the mom and pop stores they replace. The main issue with Wal-Mart isn&#039;t wages - it&#039;s that it&#039;s a local subsidy hog that practices severe racial and gender discrimination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wal-Mart is an entirely separate issue. It&#8217;s not competing for the same pool of workers as the unionized public sector &#8211; it&#8217;s competing for lower-end workers, who&#8217;d be non-union anywhere. The service sector unions are trying to organize those workers; the more established unions don&#8217;t care.</p>
<p>Besides, Wal-Mart&#8217;s labor standards aren&#8217;t that bad by the standards of the mom and pop stores they replace. The main issue with Wal-Mart isn&#8217;t wages &#8211; it&#8217;s that it&#8217;s a local subsidy hog that practices severe racial and gender discrimination.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/23/how-much-is-that-pension-in-the-window/#comment-68720</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:50:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4627#comment-68720</guid>
		<description>One reason that progressives dislike Walmart and companies like it is that they break a sort of unwritten social code that Alon mentioned - they neither provide benefits, nor pay enough that people can afford to buy health insurance and pensions on their own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One reason that progressives dislike Walmart and companies like it is that they break a sort of unwritten social code that Alon mentioned &#8211; they neither provide benefits, nor pay enough that people can afford to buy health insurance and pensions on their own.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2009/12/23/how-much-is-that-pension-in-the-window/#comment-68708</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 00:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>LOL? like Walmart the largest private employer?  Do go on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL? like Walmart the largest private employer?  Do go on.</p>
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