Comments on: The costs of Second Ave. construction http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/ A New York City Subway Blog Sat, 26 May 2012 04:42:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mr. Transit http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/#comment-246434 Mr. Transit Wed, 15 Feb 2012 13:27:02 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4784#comment-246434 Interesting that there has been no discussion of the very high cost of conforming to federal procedures and requirements in order to receive the relatively large amount of federal funding involved in Phase I. The environmental analysis, reporting requirements, and federal review of each and every stage of the project adds significant time and money to the cost of these projects. That is why so many cities are passing up federal funding on their streetcar programs. The FTA is regarded as one of the more difficult silos of the U.S. DOT to work with on large scale infrastructure projects, too. Interesting that there has been no discussion of the very high cost of conforming to federal procedures and requirements in order to receive the relatively large amount of federal funding involved in Phase I.

The environmental analysis, reporting requirements, and federal review of each and every stage of the project adds significant time and money to the cost of these projects. That is why so many cities are passing up federal funding on their streetcar programs. The FTA is regarded as one of the more difficult silos of the U.S. DOT to work with on large scale infrastructure projects, too.

]]> By: Joe http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/#comment-216522 Joe Fri, 30 Sep 2011 22:43:21 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4784#comment-216522 As I mentioned earlier, hard rock often makes tunnelling easier than wet soil. London was hardly completely rebuilt after WW2. We're not talking Hiroshima here. Some buildings were destroyed but most remain and the urban fabric is very much intact, underground infrastructure included. Tall buildings don't make much difference if you're just tunnelling under streets. Paris is also much older than New York, has a denser subway network, and has catacombs. The cost of construction in the NYC area is mind-boggling. The Tappan Zee bridge is another example of a completely unexceptional project costing at least five times more than it would in any other developed country, or even in another part of the US. As I mentioned earlier, hard rock often makes tunnelling easier than wet soil. London was hardly completely rebuilt after WW2. We’re not talking Hiroshima here. Some buildings were destroyed but most remain and the urban fabric is very much intact, underground infrastructure included. Tall buildings don’t make much difference if you’re just tunnelling under streets. Paris is also much older than New York, has a denser subway network, and has catacombs.

The cost of construction in the NYC area is mind-boggling. The Tappan Zee bridge is another example of a completely unexceptional project costing at least five times more than it would in any other developed country, or even in another part of the US.

]]> By: Joe http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/#comment-216518 Joe Fri, 30 Sep 2011 22:33:34 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4784#comment-216518 In many cases, quite the opposite is true: harder rock makes for easier digging since you don't have as many problems with settling and shoring up the tunnel. Drilling through soggy mud like in London is often much more challenging. In many cases, quite the opposite is true: harder rock makes for easier digging since you don’t have as many problems with settling and shoring up the tunnel. Drilling through soggy mud like in London is often much more challenging.

]]> By: Second Avenue Subway Construction Pinching NYC Residents | Interactive Fundamentals - Thursday AM Section http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/#comment-92451 Second Avenue Subway Construction Pinching NYC Residents | Interactive Fundamentals - Thursday AM Section Thu, 26 Aug 2010 17:29:42 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4784#comment-92451 [...] total cost of the project is running off the tracks. As Benjamin Kavaks illustrates in his blog, secondavenuesagas.com, the price tag has increased from $xxx in 20xx to $xxxx [...] [...] total cost of the project is running off the tracks. As Benjamin Kavaks illustrates in his blog, secondavenuesagas.com, the price tag has increased from $xxx in 20xx to $xxxx [...]

]]> By: Nathanael http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/#comment-71731 Nathanael Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:33:37 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4784#comment-71731 <blockquote>But other rail projects in the UK have been budgeted at several times as much as comparable projects in Continental Europe</blockquote> That's the outsourcing overhead. :-(

But other rail projects in the UK have been budgeted at several times as much as comparable projects in Continental Europe

That’s the outsourcing overhead. :-(

]]> By: Nathanael http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/#comment-71730 Nathanael Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:33:01 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4784#comment-71730 The overground work for Crossrail is actually insignificant; it consists of a short electrification (on a very wide ROW), a couple of platform lengthenings, and a maintenance yard (on an existing yard location). The overground work for Crossrail is actually insignificant; it consists of a short electrification (on a very wide ROW), a couple of platform lengthenings, and a maintenance yard (on an existing yard location).

]]> By: Nathanael http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/#comment-71729 Nathanael Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:30:46 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4784#comment-71729 A billion dollars for one station? What the heck is going on here? Well, I guess that's a deep cavern station, but that only accounts for some of it.... is there seriously a "part 2" to 96th St. Station, and if so why does it cost nearly as much?!? A billion dollars for one station?

What the heck is going on here?

Well, I guess that’s a deep cavern station, but that only accounts for some of it…. is there seriously a “part 2″ to 96th St. Station, and if so why does it cost nearly as much?!?

]]> By: Nathanael http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/#comment-71728 Nathanael Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:28:42 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4784#comment-71728 That's a very good point. With all this stuff planned, buying two "MTA TBMs" and using them for all projects would probably have saved a lot. That’s a very good point. With all this stuff planned, buying two “MTA TBMs” and using them for all projects would probably have saved a lot.

]]> By: Nathanael http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/#comment-71727 Nathanael Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:26:13 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4784#comment-71727 The southern half of Phase II has the advantage that it requires no real tunnel-digging (the tunnels were dug in the 1970s; it consists of building a couple of cut-and-cover stations. Therefore I think it has a pretty decent chance of getting done, much much more cheaply than anything else. The southern half of Phase II has the advantage that it requires no real tunnel-digging (the tunnels were dug in the 1970s; it consists of building a couple of cut-and-cover stations.

Therefore I think it has a pretty decent chance of getting done, much much more cheaply than anything else.

]]> By: Nathanael http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/14/the-costs-of-second-ave-construction/#comment-71726 Nathanael Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:23:37 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4784#comment-71726 Well, part of the problem is that apparently New York has <b>poorly documented</b> utilities. London has had complete down-to-the-inch plans for the locations of all utilities since the mid-1800s, meaning that you get very little unexpected when you dig. Paris developed similar records later. Apparently not so for New York. That makes stuff absurdly more expensive. It still doesn't account for all the costs though. Well, part of the problem is that apparently New York has poorly documented utilities.

London has had complete down-to-the-inch plans for the locations of all utilities since the mid-1800s, meaning that you get very little unexpected when you dig. Paris developed similar records later.

Apparently not so for New York. That makes stuff absurdly more expensive.

It still doesn’t account for all the costs though.

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