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	<title>Comments on: For Walder, labor costs an 800-pound gorilla in the room</title>
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	<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/20/for-walder-labor-costs-an-800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room/</link>
	<description>A New York City Subway Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/20/for-walder-labor-costs-an-800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room/#comment-70446</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 06:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4851#comment-70446</guid>
		<description>Yes, if you make $35,000, which is a lower middle class income, then you can&#039;t live in the most expensive neighborhoods. You also can&#039;t afford the most expensive restaurants. So what? You can afford a nice one bedroom in Washington Heights, and you can afford decent supermarket food.

To put things in perspective for you, $200,000 a year is above-median in the richest parts of Manhattan, and about 97th percentile nationwide. That&#039;s not middle class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, if you make $35,000, which is a lower middle class income, then you can&#8217;t live in the most expensive neighborhoods. You also can&#8217;t afford the most expensive restaurants. So what? You can afford a nice one bedroom in Washington Heights, and you can afford decent supermarket food.</p>
<p>To put things in perspective for you, $200,000 a year is above-median in the richest parts of Manhattan, and about 97th percentile nationwide. That&#8217;s not middle class.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Samuels</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/20/for-walder-labor-costs-an-800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room/#comment-70436</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Samuels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 02:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4851#comment-70436</guid>
		<description>$35,000 is POOR in Manhattan.   On $35,000 a year, you cannot have an one bedroom apartment in most desirable areas of Manhattan.

Rich or upper class people make millions or billions.  CEOs, other executives, A list actors, major writers, those are the rich/upper class.

A person making six digits is by no means rich.  I&#039;d put $200,000 a year as middle class.

If you include $35,000 as middle class, even someone working overtime at McDonald&#039;s is Middle Class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>$35,000 is POOR in Manhattan.   On $35,000 a year, you cannot have an one bedroom apartment in most desirable areas of Manhattan.</p>
<p>Rich or upper class people make millions or billions.  CEOs, other executives, A list actors, major writers, those are the rich/upper class.</p>
<p>A person making six digits is by no means rich.  I&#8217;d put $200,000 a year as middle class.</p>
<p>If you include $35,000 as middle class, even someone working overtime at McDonald&#8217;s is Middle Class.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/20/for-walder-labor-costs-an-800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room/#comment-70335</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4851#comment-70335</guid>
		<description>I read it... basically, I was giving an argument in support of you and in disagreement with Working Class. I just read your &quot;Yes, and...&quot; comment as thinking I believe people who live on Fifth Avenue are middle class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read it&#8230; basically, I was giving an argument in support of you and in disagreement with Working Class. I just read your &#8220;Yes, and&#8230;&#8221; comment as thinking I believe people who live on Fifth Avenue are middle class.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/20/for-walder-labor-costs-an-800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room/#comment-70334</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:11:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4851#comment-70334</guid>
		<description>Unions in principle believe in progressive income taxes, but in practice don&#039;t fight for them. Basically, you have the existing public sector and manufacturing unions, which fight for survival and wage increases, and the growing service unions, which are trying to organize in anti-union shops like Wal-Mart and support general progressive legislation relevant to their members (like universal health care, or immigration reform for unions in immigrant-heavy industries).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unions in principle believe in progressive income taxes, but in practice don&#8217;t fight for them. Basically, you have the existing public sector and manufacturing unions, which fight for survival and wage increases, and the growing service unions, which are trying to organize in anti-union shops like Wal-Mart and support general progressive legislation relevant to their members (like universal health care, or immigration reform for unions in immigrant-heavy industries).</p>
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		<title>By: David Robertson</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/20/for-walder-labor-costs-an-800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room/#comment-70315</link>
		<dc:creator>David Robertson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 17:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4851#comment-70315</guid>
		<description>Bravo!

The republican Manhattan Institute began 1981 - Ms. Gelinas writes in republican tabloids, her favorites Bill Oreilly, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh who love to harangue negatives with racial undertones they favor Baroness of Wasilla Sarah Palin {Henry Loeb} policies.

Long hours and no overtime, no grievance procedure, no paid vacation, no sick leave, injured on duty - you get fired, faulty equipment, no workmen compensation, rely on handouts and lord will hold your hand - Baroness of Wasilla and her choir what really irks them is minorities now get the protection of law - thus this &#039;sound point&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo!</p>
<p>The republican Manhattan Institute began 1981 &#8211; Ms. Gelinas writes in republican tabloids, her favorites Bill Oreilly, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh who love to harangue negatives with racial undertones they favor Baroness of Wasilla Sarah Palin {Henry Loeb} policies.</p>
<p>Long hours and no overtime, no grievance procedure, no paid vacation, no sick leave, injured on duty &#8211; you get fired, faulty equipment, no workmen compensation, rely on handouts and lord will hold your hand &#8211; Baroness of Wasilla and her choir what really irks them is minorities now get the protection of law &#8211; thus this &#8216;sound point&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: AK</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/20/for-walder-labor-costs-an-800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room/#comment-70306</link>
		<dc:creator>AK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4851#comment-70306</guid>
		<description>Alon, you&#039;ve gotta read what I&#039;m responding to in the first instance, which was Working Class&#039;s comment: &quot;If you live in NY and make less than 200K a year you are middle class.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alon, you&#8217;ve gotta read what I&#8217;m responding to in the first instance, which was Working Class&#8217;s comment: &#8220;If you live in NY and make less than 200K a year you are middle class.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: nycpat</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/20/for-walder-labor-costs-an-800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room/#comment-70288</link>
		<dc:creator>nycpat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 04:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4851#comment-70288</guid>
		<description>I was assuming that you were inferring that everyone on the Upper Eastside is upper middle class or wealthy. Rereading your post I see my error. I know a dozen NYCT workers who live there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was assuming that you were inferring that everyone on the Upper Eastside is upper middle class or wealthy. Rereading your post I see my error. I know a dozen NYCT workers who live there.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/20/for-walder-labor-costs-an-800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room/#comment-70287</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 03:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4851#comment-70287</guid>
		<description>Eric, I actually find it surprising that your father is not unionized. I thought truck drivers were one of the most unionized industries in the US, with one of the most militant unions. (In fact, much of the anti-union legislation in the US, e.g. the ban on secondary strikes, was passed to prevent the Teamsters from abusing their power.)

At any rate: unions were formed so that your father would be able to work 40 hours a week instead of 80, and retire at 65. In Hong Kong and Singapore, arguably the only two really capitalist countries in the world, neither is guaranteed. Singapore has a lush social security system, but it&#039;s entirely defined-contribution, without any redistribution: if your benefits run out when you&#039;re 70, you have to go back into the workforce. There are a lot of advantages to living in a capitalist country, rather than in a lobbyist-run country, but there are also disadvantages.

The question of what unions do now is different... but a lot of the privileges given to the most powerful unions stem from an unholy alliance made between the major unions and the major employers after WW2, in which the unions would give up on fighting for the entire working class and instead get benefits for just their own members. The more militant unions, e.g. the TWU before it joined the AFL, were opposed to this, but the employers believed that their ideas about social security and health care for all were socialistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, I actually find it surprising that your father is not unionized. I thought truck drivers were one of the most unionized industries in the US, with one of the most militant unions. (In fact, much of the anti-union legislation in the US, e.g. the ban on secondary strikes, was passed to prevent the Teamsters from abusing their power.)</p>
<p>At any rate: unions were formed so that your father would be able to work 40 hours a week instead of 80, and retire at 65. In Hong Kong and Singapore, arguably the only two really capitalist countries in the world, neither is guaranteed. Singapore has a lush social security system, but it&#8217;s entirely defined-contribution, without any redistribution: if your benefits run out when you&#8217;re 70, you have to go back into the workforce. There are a lot of advantages to living in a capitalist country, rather than in a lobbyist-run country, but there are also disadvantages.</p>
<p>The question of what unions do now is different&#8230; but a lot of the privileges given to the most powerful unions stem from an unholy alliance made between the major unions and the major employers after WW2, in which the unions would give up on fighting for the entire working class and instead get benefits for just their own members. The more militant unions, e.g. the TWU before it joined the AFL, were opposed to this, but the employers believed that their ideas about social security and health care for all were socialistic.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/20/for-walder-labor-costs-an-800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room/#comment-70286</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 03:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4851#comment-70286</guid>
		<description>The cost savings pale only if you really think 10% is all that&#039;s achievable.

Conversely, consider the difference between American cities and anywhere else in the developed world that&#039;s not Hong Kong or Singapore. The US actually has fewer benefits than most countries. What unions get in the US is a lot by US standards, but not by the standards of Continental Europe and parts of East Asia.

The difference in costs come from how many people are employed and how efficiently they&#039;re used, not from how much they&#039;re compensated. For example, proof of payment means one operator per mainline train instead of six; OPTO means one operator per subway train instead of two; frequent off-peak service means more regular shifts and less overtime, reducing labor costs per train.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cost savings pale only if you really think 10% is all that&#8217;s achievable.</p>
<p>Conversely, consider the difference between American cities and anywhere else in the developed world that&#8217;s not Hong Kong or Singapore. The US actually has fewer benefits than most countries. What unions get in the US is a lot by US standards, but not by the standards of Continental Europe and parts of East Asia.</p>
<p>The difference in costs come from how many people are employed and how efficiently they&#8217;re used, not from how much they&#8217;re compensated. For example, proof of payment means one operator per mainline train instead of six; OPTO means one operator per subway train instead of two; frequent off-peak service means more regular shifts and less overtime, reducing labor costs per train.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01/20/for-walder-labor-costs-an-800-pound-gorilla-in-the-room/#comment-70285</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 02:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=4851#comment-70285</guid>
		<description>The census tracts east of Third have median household incomes in the high 5 figures. Mine (I live at 72nd and York) is at $67,000. The six-figure medians are all in the tracts abutting Park or Fifth.

(I&#039;m not sure why you think I said that $200,000 is middle class. It&#039;s not, not even in Manhattan - I&#039;d put the middle/upper-middle boundary at a little over $100,000 for Manhattan living costs. Outside Manhattan, even $75,000 could be called upper middle class.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The census tracts east of Third have median household incomes in the high 5 figures. Mine (I live at 72nd and York) is at $67,000. The six-figure medians are all in the tracts abutting Park or Fifth.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;m not sure why you think I said that $200,000 is middle class. It&#8217;s not, not even in Manhattan &#8211; I&#8217;d put the middle/upper-middle boundary at a little over $100,000 for Manhattan living costs. Outside Manhattan, even $75,000 could be called upper middle class.)</p>
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