Comments on: How the Olympics ruined the 7 line extension http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/02/25/how-the-olympics-ruined-the-7-line-extension/ A New York City Subway Blog Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:22:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Russell Warshay http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/02/25/how-the-olympics-ruined-the-7-line-extension/#comment-73238 Russell Warshay Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:33:26 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5206#comment-73238 There are different types of gauges. The distance between the rails is the track gauge. Loading gauge is the "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge" rel="nofollow">maximum width and height of railway vehicles</a>." The IRT used a narrower loading gauge, but the same track gauge. This is why IRT cars can run on BMT/IND lines without a problem, except for the gap at platforms. There are different types of gauges. The distance between the rails is the track gauge. Loading gauge is the “maximum width and height of railway vehicles.” The IRT used a narrower loading gauge, but the same track gauge. This is why IRT cars can run on BMT/IND lines without a problem, except for the gap at platforms.

]]> By: Jerrold http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/02/25/how-the-olympics-ruined-the-7-line-extension/#comment-73232 Jerrold Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:07:08 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5206#comment-73232 Is "loading gauge" the same thing as "gauge", the distance between the two rails? If not, what is it, please? Is “loading gauge” the same thing as “gauge”, the distance between the two rails?
If not, what is it, please?

]]> By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/02/25/how-the-olympics-ruined-the-7-line-extension/#comment-73186 Alon Levy Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:23:39 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5206#comment-73186 The original IRT was built to the same loading gauge standards as the els (including the BMT els, which used IRT-width cars). So was PATH. The BMT decided to build trains to a wider standard, which the city then adopted for the entire Dual Contracts, and later for the IND. The Dual Contracts-era IRT tunnels are built to BMT loading gauge - they just have the platforms closer to the rails. The Astoria Line was originally built like this; after unification the city turned it from an IRT to a BMT line and shaved back the platforms. Such a thing could not be done on the oldest sections of the IRT, because the tunnel clearances are not wide enough for BMT trains. The issue with the Eastern Division is different. It's built to the same loading gauge as the rest of the BMT, but has tighter curves. Its curves were built to the BMT's 67' cars, and cannot handle 75' cars. In addition, its station shells are shorter, so the longest trains it permits consist of eight 60' cars. The original IRT was built to the same loading gauge standards as the els (including the BMT els, which used IRT-width cars). So was PATH. The BMT decided to build trains to a wider standard, which the city then adopted for the entire Dual Contracts, and later for the IND.

The Dual Contracts-era IRT tunnels are built to BMT loading gauge – they just have the platforms closer to the rails. The Astoria Line was originally built like this; after unification the city turned it from an IRT to a BMT line and shaved back the platforms. Such a thing could not be done on the oldest sections of the IRT, because the tunnel clearances are not wide enough for BMT trains.

The issue with the Eastern Division is different. It’s built to the same loading gauge as the rest of the BMT, but has tighter curves. Its curves were built to the BMT’s 67′ cars, and cannot handle 75′ cars. In addition, its station shells are shorter, so the longest trains it permits consist of eight 60′ cars.

]]> By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/02/25/how-the-olympics-ruined-the-7-line-extension/#comment-73184 Alon Levy Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:17:08 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5206#comment-73184 A cross-platform transfer between the 7 and the L is feasible, on the model of Queensboro Plaza. A cross-platform transfer between the 7 and the L is feasible, on the model of Queensboro Plaza.

]]> By: Jerrold http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/02/25/how-the-olympics-ruined-the-7-line-extension/#comment-73173 Jerrold Fri, 26 Feb 2010 03:45:42 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5206#comment-73173 OK, thanks, Ben, Scott, and Aaron! OK, thanks, Ben, Scott, and Aaron!

]]> By: Aaron http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/02/25/how-the-olympics-ruined-the-7-line-extension/#comment-73154 Aaron Fri, 26 Feb 2010 00:16:59 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5206#comment-73154 I think most people are talking about a transfer, not interlining them (or I think they are!). I think most people are talking about a transfer, not interlining them (or I think they are!).

]]> By: Aaron http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/02/25/how-the-olympics-ruined-the-7-line-extension/#comment-73153 Aaron Fri, 26 Feb 2010 00:16:14 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5206#comment-73153 All NYC subway lines and the SIR run the same gauge tracks, which is the distance between wheels, as Ben and others have said. The real IRT-BMT/IND mismatch is in train size. BMT and IND trains are a bit wider than IRT trains. An IRT train can go down BMT/IND track, but the gap between the train and the platform would be dangerously large. BMT/IND trains could theoretically use IRT tracks, but would not be able to clear the platforms or tunnels due to using wider cars. IRT trains can be moved along BMT track for service reasons (as said above, moving trains between yards), and regularly are. There is no plausible way to make the L and the 7 the same line, but they could certainly meet as a transfer in Chelsea, were the funding found for those expansions. All NYC subway lines and the SIR run the same gauge tracks, which is the distance between wheels, as Ben and others have said.

The real IRT-BMT/IND mismatch is in train size. BMT and IND trains are a bit wider than IRT trains. An IRT train can go down BMT/IND track, but the gap between the train and the platform would be dangerously large. BMT/IND trains could theoretically use IRT tracks, but would not be able to clear the platforms or tunnels due to using wider cars. IRT trains can be moved along BMT track for service reasons (as said above, moving trains between yards), and regularly are. There is no plausible way to make the L and the 7 the same line, but they could certainly meet as a transfer in Chelsea, were the funding found for those expansions.

]]> By: Jerrold http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/02/25/how-the-olympics-ruined-the-7-line-extension/#comment-73152 Jerrold Fri, 26 Feb 2010 00:01:48 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5206#comment-73152 Ben, could you tell me a little more? Is it possible that the ORIGINAL IRT, as built by August Belmont, was a narrow-gauge railway? Is it possible that the trackage was changed later on into standared gauge? Ben, could you tell me a little more?
Is it possible that the ORIGINAL IRT, as built by August Belmont, was a narrow-gauge railway?
Is it possible that the trackage was changed later on into standared gauge?

]]> By: Scott E http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/02/25/how-the-olympics-ruined-the-7-line-extension/#comment-73149 Scott E Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:38:43 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5206#comment-73149 It's a good thing, too, that it's the same gauge. That's how they get trains between the 7 line to the other IRT lines. There is a crossover at Queensboro Plaza where trains can go from the 7 to the N/W. To move a train from the 7 to the 1, for instance, the trains uses this crossover and follows the N/W into Manhattan. It then reverses direction and goes into Queens on the Queens Blvd. line. It then reverses again, along the E, until it gets to the 8th Ave line. A fourth reversal brings it up to the 207th St. yard, which is shared with the 1. I'm not making this up. Imagine what it must have taken to move all the R62As to the 7 line (replacing the redbirds), when the newer R142s came on the 2, 4, 5, and 6. It’s a good thing, too, that it’s the same gauge. That’s how they get trains between the 7 line to the other IRT lines. There is a crossover at Queensboro Plaza where trains can go from the 7 to the N/W. To move a train from the 7 to the 1, for instance, the trains uses this crossover and follows the N/W into Manhattan. It then reverses direction and goes into Queens on the Queens Blvd. line. It then reverses again, along the E, until it gets to the 8th Ave line. A fourth reversal brings it up to the 207th St. yard, which is shared with the 1.

I’m not making this up. Imagine what it must have taken to move all the R62As to the 7 line (replacing the redbirds), when the newer R142s came on the 2, 4, 5, and 6.

]]> By: bob http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/02/25/how-the-olympics-ruined-the-7-line-extension/#comment-73146 bob Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:26:33 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5206#comment-73146 Well let's not forget that once the Olympics and the football stadium plans died (and I am thankful both did) the extension was tied into the Hudson Yards plans. The idea being that for such a development there had to be transit nearby. Serving the existing population, which is what the dropped station would do, isn't a Boomberg priority. Well let’s not forget that once the Olympics and the football stadium plans died (and I am thankful both did) the extension was tied into the Hudson Yards plans. The idea being that for such a development there had to be transit nearby. Serving the existing population, which is what the dropped station would do, isn’t a Boomberg priority.

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