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	<title>Comments on: Finding a way around the subways or not</title>
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	<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/05/finding-a-way-around-the-subways-or-not/</link>
	<description>A New York City Subway Blog</description>
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		<title>By: The signs of a costumer-focused approach :: Second Ave. Sagas</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/05/finding-a-way-around-the-subways-or-not/#comment-205155</link>
		<dc:creator>The signs of a costumer-focused approach :: Second Ave. Sagas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2011 05:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5285#comment-205155</guid>
		<description>[...] B and D, I know what this confusing array of words means. In an attempt to decipher the text in a missive on signs I published last March, I wrote: &#8220;The B train stops at W 4th St., except when it doesn’t, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] B and D, I know what this confusing array of words means. In an attempt to decipher the text in a missive on signs I published last March, I wrote: &#8220;The B train stops at W 4th St., except when it doesn’t, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ARC Fallout: Remodeling Penn Station :: Second Ave. Sagas</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/05/finding-a-way-around-the-subways-or-not/#comment-150171</link>
		<dc:creator>ARC Fallout: Remodeling Penn Station :: Second Ave. Sagas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5285#comment-150171</guid>
		<description>[...] According to Grossman, the LIRR has a list of improvements it wants to make. Some are easier to implement than others while some would require long-term disruptions. They include &#8220;better signage, improved passenger flow, higher ceilings and natural light.&#8221; Signage has, as I wrote in March, long been a challenge for the MTA. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] According to Grossman, the LIRR has a list of improvements it wants to make. Some are easier to implement than others while some would require long-term disruptions. They include &#8220;better signage, improved passenger flow, higher ceilings and natural light.&#8221; Signage has, as I wrote in March, long been a challenge for the MTA. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/05/finding-a-way-around-the-subways-or-not/#comment-74203</link>
		<dc:creator>bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5285#comment-74203</guid>
		<description>I have to say I think your first photo is a bit unfair, given that the issue is the width.

Maybe most readers here haven&#039;t been in the city long enough, but 25 years ago the signage was much much worse. In many places non-existant. I LIKE the subways and I once spent 20 minutes wandering around the Chambers St. IND station looking for the connection to the Park Place IRT. It was on the maps, but there was zero clues. I didn&#039;t find it that day. Yes, I&#039;ve found it since, and it&#039;s well marked now.

I don&#039;t think they started putting the station ID&#039;s on columns until the 70s. Before that you were just supposed to know, or catch the tile sign as you pulled in.

Also, there was a time when they put exact times for the end of service on signs. But really, even on the good days, who can say the last train scheduled for 9:12 didn&#039;t come at 9:10, or if it&#039;s 9:15 it will be here in a minute? And is your watch in tune with thiers? It wasn&#039;t really helping. 

Any complaints should be taken in the context of how far we have come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say I think your first photo is a bit unfair, given that the issue is the width.</p>
<p>Maybe most readers here haven&#8217;t been in the city long enough, but 25 years ago the signage was much much worse. In many places non-existant. I LIKE the subways and I once spent 20 minutes wandering around the Chambers St. IND station looking for the connection to the Park Place IRT. It was on the maps, but there was zero clues. I didn&#8217;t find it that day. Yes, I&#8217;ve found it since, and it&#8217;s well marked now.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think they started putting the station ID&#8217;s on columns until the 70s. Before that you were just supposed to know, or catch the tile sign as you pulled in.</p>
<p>Also, there was a time when they put exact times for the end of service on signs. But really, even on the good days, who can say the last train scheduled for 9:12 didn&#8217;t come at 9:10, or if it&#8217;s 9:15 it will be here in a minute? And is your watch in tune with thiers? It wasn&#8217;t really helping. </p>
<p>Any complaints should be taken in the context of how far we have come.</p>
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		<title>By: AB</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/05/finding-a-way-around-the-subways-or-not/#comment-74170</link>
		<dc:creator>AB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5285#comment-74170</guid>
		<description>For everyone&#039;s information, the MTA fixed the 6th Ave/DeKalb issue probably about a year or more ago (I think in the schedule revision after the one that extended the hours of the B to later in the evening).  If you look at the schedules currently available on the website, the last Brighton Beach-bound B to stop at DeKalb Avenue is 10:45pm, and the first D that is indicated as stopping at DeKalb Avenue is about 10:52pm or so (time point is Pacific Street at 10:55pm).  Similarly, in the early morning there is no gap in 6th Avenue service from DeKalb Avenue.  This was, I believe, in response to public requests/comments, etc.  

Unfortunately, many have also requested that D trains stop at DeKalb Avenue all weekend when the B doesn&#039;t run; while this would be useful, it is trickier with daytime volumes of trains passing through the area.  While there are switches as has been mentioned that would allow trains to operate express on 4th Avenue and then stop at DeKalb Avenue, they are very slow and located on a curve and are usually avoided for regular service (ok incidentally or in an emergency, not particularly suitable for constant use). 

As for the signs, I think they only mention Pacific Street because it applies at all times so as to avoid (even more) confusion or clutter on the signs.  As an aside, wouldn&#039;t it be cool to have electronic, variable-message signs in those locations to tell you exactly what train is coming and what it&#039;s doing, that would be changeable if a train is rerouted, etc!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For everyone&#8217;s information, the MTA fixed the 6th Ave/DeKalb issue probably about a year or more ago (I think in the schedule revision after the one that extended the hours of the B to later in the evening).  If you look at the schedules currently available on the website, the last Brighton Beach-bound B to stop at DeKalb Avenue is 10:45pm, and the first D that is indicated as stopping at DeKalb Avenue is about 10:52pm or so (time point is Pacific Street at 10:55pm).  Similarly, in the early morning there is no gap in 6th Avenue service from DeKalb Avenue.  This was, I believe, in response to public requests/comments, etc.  </p>
<p>Unfortunately, many have also requested that D trains stop at DeKalb Avenue all weekend when the B doesn&#8217;t run; while this would be useful, it is trickier with daytime volumes of trains passing through the area.  While there are switches as has been mentioned that would allow trains to operate express on 4th Avenue and then stop at DeKalb Avenue, they are very slow and located on a curve and are usually avoided for regular service (ok incidentally or in an emergency, not particularly suitable for constant use). </p>
<p>As for the signs, I think they only mention Pacific Street because it applies at all times so as to avoid (even more) confusion or clutter on the signs.  As an aside, wouldn&#8217;t it be cool to have electronic, variable-message signs in those locations to tell you exactly what train is coming and what it&#8217;s doing, that would be changeable if a train is rerouted, etc!</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/05/finding-a-way-around-the-subways-or-not/#comment-73915</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 15:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5285#comment-73915</guid>
		<description>Those &quot;Exit middle of plat&quot; signs were installed in recent years, as I recall in response to a fire at a station with an exit at only one end (York Street, maybe?) at which passengers were sent the wrong way to get out.

They were generally installed on the reverse side of preexisting signs.  The standard &quot;Exit&quot; sign is narrow, so in many cases there wasn&#039;t much room to spell out words in full.

Hence the abbreviated &quot;platform&quot;.

I don&#039;t see a problem with the B/D signs, but they should be supplemented with timetables posted on the columns, or at least an explicit statement of the hours of B operation, and of D local operation, at this station.  Trying to cram the times onto the main sign would be confusing to anybody not traveling at a potentially ambiguous time of day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those &#8220;Exit middle of plat&#8221; signs were installed in recent years, as I recall in response to a fire at a station with an exit at only one end (York Street, maybe?) at which passengers were sent the wrong way to get out.</p>
<p>They were generally installed on the reverse side of preexisting signs.  The standard &#8220;Exit&#8221; sign is narrow, so in many cases there wasn&#8217;t much room to spell out words in full.</p>
<p>Hence the abbreviated &#8220;platform&#8221;.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see a problem with the B/D signs, but they should be supplemented with timetables posted on the columns, or at least an explicit statement of the hours of B operation, and of D local operation, at this station.  Trying to cram the times onto the main sign would be confusing to anybody not traveling at a potentially ambiguous time of day.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/05/finding-a-way-around-the-subways-or-not/#comment-73914</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 15:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5285#comment-73914</guid>
		<description>Because running the B is costly, and the various other routes that overlap with the B (the Q, D, and C) are adequate for the loads late in the evening.

Diverting the D to the local track at DeKalb (and then back to the express at Pacific) would make for an easier transfer, but it would also make for delays and less reliable service due to the extra merge with the R.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because running the B is costly, and the various other routes that overlap with the B (the Q, D, and C) are adequate for the loads late in the evening.</p>
<p>Diverting the D to the local track at DeKalb (and then back to the express at Pacific) would make for an easier transfer, but it would also make for delays and less reliable service due to the extra merge with the R.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Payton</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/05/finding-a-way-around-the-subways-or-not/#comment-73902</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Payton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 03:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5285#comment-73902</guid>
		<description>There are some wonderful anachronisms in full view in the subway system. At E. 149th St. in the Bronx, there is still a tile sign directing people to the 3rd Avenue El, which closed in 1957; and at the E. 14th St. station on the 6th Ave. line, there are tile signs to the PATH trains using their old name, the Hudson &amp; Manhattan Railroad(the directions are still right, but the name is outdated by several decades). Speaking of PATH, the &quot;E&quot; capping the columns in the Newport-Pavonia station is for &quot;Erie&quot;; that station originally served the long-gone Erie RR Terminal at that location. Back in NYC, Penn Station has a few original tile signs, too, but these remain accurate. Quite honestly, as a subway user and fan, I hope these classics remain in full view forever. They&#039;re part of what gives the system its unique character.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are some wonderful anachronisms in full view in the subway system. At E. 149th St. in the Bronx, there is still a tile sign directing people to the 3rd Avenue El, which closed in 1957; and at the E. 14th St. station on the 6th Ave. line, there are tile signs to the PATH trains using their old name, the Hudson &amp; Manhattan Railroad(the directions are still right, but the name is outdated by several decades). Speaking of PATH, the &#8220;E&#8221; capping the columns in the Newport-Pavonia station is for &#8220;Erie&#8221;; that station originally served the long-gone Erie RR Terminal at that location. Back in NYC, Penn Station has a few original tile signs, too, but these remain accurate. Quite honestly, as a subway user and fan, I hope these classics remain in full view forever. They&#8217;re part of what gives the system its unique character.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/05/finding-a-way-around-the-subways-or-not/#comment-73864</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 03:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5285#comment-73864</guid>
		<description>The problem with &quot;exit mid-platform&quot; is that there&#039;s nowhere to put the line breaks to split it into three approximately-equal pieces as on the existing sign. It&#039;s not just about number of characters but also about which of those characters are spaes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with &#8220;exit mid-platform&#8221; is that there&#8217;s nowhere to put the line breaks to split it into three approximately-equal pieces as on the existing sign. It&#8217;s not just about number of characters but also about which of those characters are spaes.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Kabak</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/05/finding-a-way-around-the-subways-or-not/#comment-73851</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Kabak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5285#comment-73851</guid>
		<description>Nope. There&#039;s a switch just north of Pacific St. So a train can pull into DeKalb on the tracks off of the bridge, switch to the 4th Ave. line and switch to the express tracks. But if the train pulls into Pacific St. on the local side, it will run on the local tracks to at least 36th St.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope. There&#8217;s a switch just north of Pacific St. So a train can pull into DeKalb on the tracks off of the bridge, switch to the 4th Ave. line and switch to the express tracks. But if the train pulls into Pacific St. on the local side, it will run on the local tracks to at least 36th St.</p>
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		<title>By: JE</title>
		<link>http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/05/finding-a-way-around-the-subways-or-not/#comment-73850</link>
		<dc:creator>JE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5285#comment-73850</guid>
		<description>If a D or N stops at DeKalb, does that also mean that the train must continue as a local for its Fourth Avenue run?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If a D or N stops at DeKalb, does that also mean that the train must continue as a local for its Fourth Avenue run?</p>
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