Comments on: On the ten most expensive transit projects of the decade http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/08/on-the-ten-most-expensive-transit-projects-of-the-decade/ A New York City Subway Blog Sat, 26 May 2012 04:42:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Nathanael http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/08/on-the-ten-most-expensive-transit-projects-of-the-decade/#comment-74346 Nathanael Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:59:06 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5311#comment-74346 It is clear that contractors have been charging too much and delivering too little on NYS transit projects, and that oversight has been incompetent. But that's all going to change with Jay Walder (yes, I'm an optimist), and I agree with Justin that the Spanish Harlem section is very likely to get built thanks to those existing tunnels. If they can't get the cost for one station supervised properly, things are even wronger than I expect. So I expect that, one station at a time, it will get done. The push to 125th Street will then become overwhelmingly important, if only to relieve the Lexington line a bit more. It is clear that contractors have been charging too much and delivering too little on NYS transit projects, and that oversight has been incompetent.

But that’s all going to change with Jay Walder (yes, I’m an optimist), and I agree with Justin that the Spanish Harlem section is very likely to get built thanks to those existing tunnels. If they can’t get the cost for one station supervised properly, things are even wronger than I expect. So I expect that, one station at a time, it will get done. The push to 125th Street will then become overwhelmingly important, if only to relieve the Lexington line a bit more.

]]> By: Justin Samuels http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/08/on-the-ten-most-expensive-transit-projects-of-the-decade/#comment-74334 Justin Samuels Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:46:46 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5311#comment-74334 I think the full line can easily happen. Once the portion on the UES is complete, the Spanish Harlem tunnels are mostly built. All you need is the stations. So once the second avenue subway is built to Spanish Harlem, as money comes in, the MTA will built it down to lower Manhattan. A number of projects proposed in the 60s, were eventually completed many years later, such as the 63 street tunnel, the E to Archer Avenue, etc. The LIRR to grand central was also first worked on in the 70s, and now construction work on that has started. Look at the new water tunnels being built to NYC. The city finds ways to find certain long term infastructure projects, and eventually FINISHES them. I think the full line can easily happen. Once the portion on the UES is complete, the Spanish Harlem tunnels are mostly built. All you need is the stations.

So once the second avenue subway is built to Spanish Harlem, as money comes in, the MTA will built it down to lower Manhattan.

A number of projects proposed in the 60s, were eventually completed many years later, such as the 63 street tunnel, the E to Archer Avenue, etc. The LIRR to grand central was also first worked on in the 70s, and now construction work on that has started.

Look at the new water tunnels being built to NYC. The city finds ways to find certain long term infastructure projects, and eventually FINISHES them.

]]> By: bob http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/08/on-the-ten-most-expensive-transit-projects-of-the-decade/#comment-74299 bob Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:51:06 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5311#comment-74299 SAS isn't just straight down the East Side. There is this blindness that the first phase really doesn't go anywhere. But if you've every rode the Times Square Shuttle an awful lot of people go from the Upper East Side to the West Side Subways (IRT and BMT, I'm less sure how many take the hike at Times Square to 8th Ave). Just this phase of SAS will simplify those people's commute by dropping one transfer. Many that now take the IRT will skip the 2nd transfer even if it's a slightly longer walk at the destination. It's very expensive, yes, but will be worth it. None of the other alternatives gives you improved west side access. I hope when the southern portion is built (maybe another generation) they go 4 tracks (at least 3) for improved capacity and operational flexibility. Another part never mentioned is that the 63rd St tunnel has provision for trains to connect to SAS going south, i.e. service to/from Queens to 2nd Ave s/o 63rd St. That shouldn't be ignored. Continuing a 2 track line is going to be capacity constrained. SAS isn’t just straight down the East Side. There is this blindness that the first phase really doesn’t go anywhere. But if you’ve every rode the Times Square Shuttle an awful lot of people go from the Upper East Side to the West Side Subways (IRT and BMT, I’m less sure how many take the hike at Times Square to 8th Ave). Just this phase of SAS will simplify those people’s commute by dropping one transfer. Many that now take the IRT will skip the 2nd transfer even if it’s a slightly longer walk at the destination.

It’s very expensive, yes, but will be worth it. None of the other alternatives gives you improved west side access. I hope when the southern portion is built (maybe another generation) they go 4 tracks (at least 3) for improved capacity and operational flexibility. Another part never mentioned is that the 63rd St tunnel has provision for trains to connect to SAS going south, i.e. service to/from Queens to 2nd Ave s/o 63rd St. That shouldn’t be ignored. Continuing a 2 track line is going to be capacity constrained.

]]> By: bob http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/08/on-the-ten-most-expensive-transit-projects-of-the-decade/#comment-74209 bob Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:07:06 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5311#comment-74209 As a bit of history, the people out in Queens did care about the Airtrain, but the PA ignored them. Rudy and the Queens boro president pushed that plan to extend the N train towards LGA, elevated, and the locals there did help beat it down. Plus the lack of funds. As a bit of history, the people out in Queens did care about the Airtrain, but the PA ignored them.

Rudy and the Queens boro president pushed that plan to extend the N train towards LGA, elevated, and the locals there did help beat it down. Plus the lack of funds.

]]> By: bob http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/08/on-the-ten-most-expensive-transit-projects-of-the-decade/#comment-74208 bob Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:04:45 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5311#comment-74208 I'm sorry Alon, but as an engineer, that generalisation doesn't work. The volume of a freeway tunnel may be greater. But a large piece of the costs are fixed start-up, not dependent on material removed. Rail will need a much stronger foundation since the weights are so much more. Additionally you have to build a power infrastructure, and while that's not visible to the rider, it's not cheap. All new rail construction includes ventilation fans for emergencies, car tunnels need them depending on legnth and depth. All urban construction is expensive. But the volume of a tunnel is less of a factor than you think. I’m sorry Alon, but as an engineer, that generalisation doesn’t work. The volume of a freeway tunnel may be greater. But a large piece of the costs are fixed start-up, not dependent on material removed. Rail will need a much stronger foundation since the weights are so much more. Additionally you have to build a power infrastructure, and while that’s not visible to the rider, it’s not cheap. All new rail construction includes ventilation fans for emergencies, car tunnels need them depending on legnth and depth.

All urban construction is expensive. But the volume of a tunnel is less of a factor than you think.

]]> By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/08/on-the-ten-most-expensive-transit-projects-of-the-decade/#comment-74197 Alon Levy Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:59:01 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5311#comment-74197 If you want to go in that direction, the Big Dig is small change compared to the Iraq War. There's always a bigger waste. There's always a bigger murderer, too, but it doesn't mean you should go around killing people. If you want to go in that direction, the Big Dig is small change compared to the Iraq War. There’s always a bigger waste. There’s always a bigger murderer, too, but it doesn’t mean you should go around killing people.

]]> By: Alon Levy http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/08/on-the-ten-most-expensive-transit-projects-of-the-decade/#comment-74133 Alon Levy Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:54:48 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5311#comment-74133 The density was added in the 1970s, when the area was upzoned in anticipation of the completion of SAS then. There's no real need for further TOD on the Upper East Side, which is the most densely populated neighborhood in the developed world that isn't in Hong Kong. The blocks abutting 2nd Avenue have densities in the 60,000-80,000/km^2 range. The density was added in the 1970s, when the area was upzoned in anticipation of the completion of SAS then.

There’s no real need for further TOD on the Upper East Side, which is the most densely populated neighborhood in the developed world that isn’t in Hong Kong. The blocks abutting 2nd Avenue have densities in the 60,000-80,000/km^2 range.

]]> By: Niccolo Machiavelli http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/08/on-the-ten-most-expensive-transit-projects-of-the-decade/#comment-74078 Niccolo Machiavelli Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:35:05 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5311#comment-74078 I judge all transit projects on the Big Dig cost effectiveness sliding scale. A sprawl inducing $15 billion. I judge all transit projects on the Big Dig cost effectiveness sliding scale. A sprawl inducing $15 billion.

]]> By: Benjamin Kabak http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/08/on-the-ten-most-expensive-transit-projects-of-the-decade/#comment-74059 Benjamin Kabak Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:04:02 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5311#comment-74059 The question is really about the alternatives. Light rail and/or a better BRT system would have cost far less and taken less time to build. I'm all in favor of the SAS, but it's clear that (a) the full line is never going to happen because of the cost and (b) the costs are off the charts. The question is really about the alternatives. Light rail and/or a better BRT system would have cost far less and taken less time to build. I’m all in favor of the SAS, but it’s clear that (a) the full line is never going to happen because of the cost and (b) the costs are off the charts.

]]> By: Woody http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/03/08/on-the-ten-most-expensive-transit-projects-of-the-decade/#comment-74058 Woody Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:02:48 +0000 http://secondavenuesagas.com/?p=5311#comment-74058 Well, do you mean, "Is the SAS truly worth it?' or do you mean "Was the SAS truly worth it?" It's not like we have a do-over opportunity here. We've got a billion or so sunk in the ground with design work done, land condemned and purchased, contracts let, several blocks cut and barely covered, tunnel boring machines bought and ready to drop into that cut, and so forth. To me there's no turning back. Anyway, we turned back once in my lifetime already, and I'm in no mood to wait another 35 years. Take another little pause now and think it will get cheaper? They'll use lasers to cut the rock next time or sumpin? Somehow I doubt it. So I take your question as rhetorical. And I give thanks to Chuck Schumer for the $79 million (see above). Every little bit helps to close the gap and get this thing done. Well, do you mean, “Is the SAS truly worth it?’ or do you mean “Was the SAS truly worth it?”

It’s not like we have a do-over opportunity here. We’ve got a billion or so sunk in the ground with design work done, land condemned and purchased, contracts let, several blocks cut and barely covered, tunnel boring machines bought and ready to drop into that cut, and so forth. To me there’s no turning back.

Anyway, we turned back once in my lifetime already, and I’m in no mood to wait another 35 years. Take another little pause now and think it will get cheaper? They’ll use lasers to cut the rock next time or sumpin? Somehow I doubt it.

So I take your question as rhetorical. And I give thanks to Chuck Schumer for the $79 million (see above). Every little bit helps to close the gap and get this thing done.

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