As the R train’s Montague Tube shutdown enters week two, the Bay Ridge ferries from 58th St. in Brooklyn to Lower Manhattan have been three weeks to live. Proposed by politicians and rider advocates as a way to alleviate travel concerns during the tunnel work, the ferry is not what I’d call a necessity. I’ve already expressed my skepticism of the plan, and a piece on its usage and costs in this week’s issue of The Brooklyn Paper does little to convert me.
Will Bredderman did some digging into the ferry and its ridership needs. He found that all of 120 people took the boat on its first day of service earlier this week, and the New York City Economic Development Corporation would not comment on the number of people needed to keep the service afloat. Despite the EDC’s assurances that they were “happy” with the early ridership, based on the cost estimates Bredderman reported, we should be skeptical indeed.
The kicker here is indeed those costs. The fare to ride the ferry is $2, but according to The Brooklyn Paper’s sources, the cost of a trip is around $20 a passenger. In other words, the EDC is subsidizing the ferry to the tune of around $18 a person. That’s a farebox operating ratio of 10 percent, and even if ridership inches up a bit, it won’t increase enough to make these costs more palatable.
Again, then, I’m left questioning the city’s new-found love of ferries. Politicians have embraced them as an alternate means of transportation while flat-out ignoring the fact that many ferry terminals — like the one at 58th St. in Brooklyn — are a mile away from the nearest subway and not located near dense residential areas that would warrant such service. Meanwhile, we don’t discuss costs because the EDC, unlike the MTA, isn’t forthcoming with its budget numbers.
When the MTA cut bus lines in 2010, they did so based, in part, on the cost to operate those buses. Many routes that were bleeding money were eliminated, and in the MTA documents provided at the time, we learned that some of the buses cut cost more per passenger to operate than fares dictated. None of the routes though were as unprofitable as the ferry, and all of the routes serviced orders of magnitude more people than a ferry does. Overall, New York City Transit’s current mid-year farebox operating ratio is projected to be around 58.6% for 2013. Why do we fetishize ferries so much again?
30 comments
“That’s a farebox operating ratio of 10 percent, and even if ridership inches up a bit, it won’t increase enough to make these costs more palatable.”
Sounds like the SIR.
In the world of transit, theres nothing more foolish than making a judgement based on day 1 ridership.
And yet, this isn’t the first time a Bay Ridge ferry has existed. Has ridership ever warranted the service?
According to the folks championing the service on the 58th St pier this week, day 2 saw 150 riders, and day 3 saw 130. That’s across all AM Manhattan-bound trips (and does not count the evening service).
yes, day 1 and is over. lol
I think it’s pretty obvious why politicians fetishize ferries — it’s a weasely way of acting like you support real transport improvements without pissing anybody off. Propose a new subway or restoration of dormant tracks and you awaken the NIMBYs along the right-of-way; propose BRT and you anger drivers who fear the loss of parking spaces and travel lanes. Proposing ferry service isn’t threatening to anyone, and probably appeals to a lot of the public that doesn’t think about transportation in a critical way (even though they probably would never actually use it).
So essentially 1-2 peak hour subway cars — not trains, but cars.
you don’t need $10 billion to start a ferry and wait decades for it to start running. its a cheap way to establish demand and then work your way from there for more expensive transporation
What demand? Demand for inconvenient service from a terminal far away from anyone? That’s not at all how you assess demand for anything.
where is the terminal? from what i saw it looks like its right by where the BQE splits and there are lots of 2-3 family homes in the area.
for a conspiracy theory, if the ferry is going downtown it could be a way to set up an easy commute for people who work in the area in order to have them look into buying homes there. lose money for a few years until demand builds up
Don’t take this personally, but you don’t really have any idea what you’re talking about here. The ferry terminal is on the other side of a giant industrial complex in an area not zoned for residential. It’s a mile from the nearest subway stop and the walk is less than scenic underneath the Gowanus. It’s not near any sort of area with lots of 2-3 family homes, and it’s patently absurd that it’s being subsidized to the extent that it is.
so where exactly is it?
At the end of the long pier at the end of 58th Street. The number of people who live in those row houses between 2nd and 3rd is de minimus for planning purposes, and the number of them who have any need to get from there to Wall St. via a ferry that’s about a half a mile away from their houses (let alone the rest of the neighborhood) is even lower.
who owns all that parking in the area and how much would it cost to park there?
could be the people using the ferry drive there, park and then go to work. going towards the verazano the BQE isn’t too bad in the morning.
Should we just buy anyone inconvenienced by the R train a car too?
person i know who takes the R from its last stop says its faster now with the tunnel out of service. he says a lot of people used to switch to the express before anyway
who funds the EDC?
Not sure who owns the pier but parking on it is free. It’s also free to take a bicycle on the ferry. Neither fact has been well publicized, and even if they were I’m not convinced they provide enough incentive to drive up regular ridership.
Brooklyn Army Terminal owns the pier. Great place to fish then the south of 69th Street Pier
WTF is an agency as antithetical to New York City transportation even allowed to be managing a transportation project for? EDC treats economic development a little bit like al-Qaeda treats the New York City skyline, and it shows in almost everything they do.
Something like express buses would arguably make more sense. At least they move people from their neighborhoods and normal subway station.
The EDC is involved in many projects… they were also the ones who sponsored the feasibility of extending the #7 to Secaucus. Their job is to study anything that will promote economic activity.
Considering they NYC economy is more diverse than at any time city big city manufacturing died – I’m not sure of your characterization of them.
Ferries seem to be an awkward addition to NYC’s commuter network, as most of the land transit connections aren’t designed to interface with ferries. On the Jersey side of the river, things are very different. Because all trains (save the PRR, and the H&M tubes, now PATH) once had to maintain their own terminals in Jersey for their “New York” terminals, they developed effective interchanges with ferries. Even the New York Central once had ferries from Weehawken….
But, let’s return to the present. Ferries might be a smart addition to the NYC transit network, but not for the purposes we’ve seen so far. Does it make sense to subsidize a sparsely used ferry route from the Rockaways, touching Brooklyn, and then on to Manhattan? Probably not. But it might make sense to subsidize ferries from Manhattan to the two NYC airports, both of which are next to water. Would it make sense to have a pair of ferry terminals in Manhattan (midtown and downtown) with routes connecting to LGA and JFK? I’d bet that the LGA connection would be faster than most land transits. And if we use hovercraft for ferries, we might beat land transit for JFK as well.
But this is only conjecture and brainstorming for now. It is not a serious proposal. NYC should invest in low cost projects which can return the biggest bang per buck. Some ideas – would it make sense to turn the right of way for the “Montauk” line of the LIRR (the one that used to stop at places like Richmond Hill) and bring it into the subway system? Of course, we have the Ozone Park (former Rockaway) line that could be connected to the subway system. And though it might seem crazy, It might be worth thinking about extending the #6 line from its current terminus to Co-Op city with a “loop line”.
Yes, my ideas go from reasonable to wacky – but we need to think out of the box to maximize value for the limited amount of dollars available for mass transit. Spending $18 to bring the cost of a ferry ride to $2 does not make sense, when better projects such as dedicated bus lanes with on-street fare collection make more sense….
They are planning to build a Metro North stop at Co-Op City… so I doubt the extension of the 6 would happen.
While a JFK ferry may be difficult (there are a few small marinas in the Rockaways west of the Cross Bay where erecting a pier for a large boat may be difficult), but a ferry from 34th to the World’s Fair Marina and a shuttle to LGA could definitely work (there was a similar water taxi route for Mets games that was privately sponsored a few years ago).
I live in Bay Ridge. I tried this ferry out a few years ago.
The Brooklyn ferry location is awful. No one’s fault, but it is in Siberia.
This is a non solution to a very small, temporary, problem.There are very easy connections for alternate subway service , esp with the fairly new Jay St connection to the A C and F , with elevators at both platforms.
Most who try the ferry will stop using it – ridership will decline, as it declined before. The R and connection is much better, and faster for most. I love the return commute, since you always get a seat on the R at Court or Jay Streets, even at rush hour.
Long live the R train, even with the connection.
Ferries used to be important… but ppl are just not used to using them so it takes a while to adjust. Then the problem is not the ferries – but the location.
Water cities like NY can certainly make use of ferries.
Why adjust if there are better rail and bus solutions to most places now?
Ferries are great in spots, but only as a niche.
The glory days of ferries were before we had the many bridges and tunnels we have now., when major rail fed the ferries on both sides.
the only bus near the pier is B11, otherwise drive to there for free parking.
I don’t recall anyone ever suggesting they were anything but niche… but it seems Ben is arguing to just not bother with them.
An $18 subsidy is a ridiculous and patently indefensible amount for any form of transit. These ferries lose money, are almost entirely in areas with few residences (you can make an exception for the Greenpoint, North Williamsburg, and maybe DUMBO East River Ferry stops but even then the ridership seems to be only strong on the weekends – this is anecdotal though), are not good for the water or the atmosphere, and do not interface well with the rest of the transit system. Even as a stopgap measure they seem to be a pretty bad alternative.
Really the only thing ferries have going for them is that they can be established quickly and politicians can put their name on them within their term. That seems to be the only reason why Quinn et al. is so big on the “Triboro RX bus” and the ferries.
I think if you want to see transportation alternatives, its probably worth looking at light rail trollies on dedicated right of ways. They are cheaper than subways, but really the only thing that will compete. Buses have a negative reputation and will continue to suffer as long as they are stuck in traffic; ferries are too far from population centers and destinations to really have an impact on new routes.