Second Ave. Sagas

Customer appreciation and a Herald Square transfer

Written by

Benjamin Kabak

in

Over the past few years, I’ve written extensively about the MTA’s focus on or lack of customer service. From the frustration we experience over connections that aren’t made because Transit won’t hold local trains as an express pulls in to refund polices that just don’t go that extra mile, the MTA seems to have a love-hate relationship with its customers. It obviously needs them, but it struggles with appreciating them.

Lately, MTA officials have tried to be more customer-friendly. An open-data policy has led to a robust community of app developers; countdown clocks make waiting more bearable; and Joe Lhota spoke extensively about delivering service improvements for the benefit of the MTA’s customers when he announced the so-called “service investments” last week. Still, little things that are easy to correct often make me raise an eyebrow in dismay.

One of those things involve the uptown N, R and Q trains at 34th St. Because of either Transit stubbornness or a need to run too many trains to 49th St., the uptown Q switches from the express tracks to the local south of 42nd St., and the Q will often wait at 34th St. as an uptown local arrives. Sometimes, the conductor will announce which train will be first to leave, but often, riders are left guessing. Some will dash across the platform once they figure out which train is departing; others will wait the 2-3 extra minutes in the serenity of a calmer commute.

It’s an odd little dance, and in a piece on City Room, Matt Flegenheimer profiled the dash between trains. “It’s a gamble that you take,” Michelle Price said to The Times reporter. “Sometimes you win; sometimes you don’t.”

He writes:

Many riders tussle daily with the timeless question: local or express? But for the denizens of the N, R or Q trains, traveling uptown through Midtown, the calculus is a bit more complicated. Every morning, during peak commuting periods, two trains often arrive at about the same time. Sometimes the express leaves first. Sometimes it is the local. Sometimes at least two local trains will depart before a single express does. Sometimes they move together. And virtually every time there is a decision to be made, riders scamper across the platform, groping for a competitive travel advantage even as they are unsure why they have made their choice…

According to the transportation authority, the confusion is caused by a dispatching quirk on the Q train’s route on weekday mornings. Some Q express trains become locals after leaving 34th Street — crossing over and eventually going to Queens — but some do not. If an express is not changing course, it can leave at the same time as a local at 34th Street. If it is, a dispatcher must decide which train leaves first, said Charles Seaton, a spokesman for the authority.

Announcers occasionally inform passengers which train will leave first, though this often happens after the doors of the departing train have begun to close. For a rider, a wrong choice, to say nothing of two or three, can lead to several minutes in initial delays. The amount of time lost can accelerate for passengers with transfers to make at the next stop, Times Square, who may miss their connections. (Since all N, Q and R trains stop at both 34th Street and Times Square, most of the switching at 34th Street is most likely done only because a rider thinks a train will leave first.)

The question, of course, isn’t about a local vs. an express. If the two trains were on separate tracks leaving at the same time, the express would always be the right answer. Rather, it’s about what happens when the express becomes a local and other trains are competing for the same track space. Reaction to The Times’ amusing and overwrought story has ranged from applaus to derision with many folks channeling a popular Twitter feed. Take a gander:

Maybe it’s about all of that, and maybe it’s just about a quirk of life underground. But I also think it’s about customer service. If the drivers know which train is going to leave first, the customers should too. It might lead to a few sprints across the platform, but it will also lead to better informed customers who aren’t left waiting for their train to leave. The stranded straphangers will grow less impatient and may appreciate the added bit of information and that’s extra minutes saved during their commute.

Missed connections are an annoying fact of life underground. That 2 train pulling out as the 4 arrives at Nevins or that 3 speeding away as the 1 gets to 96th Street or that Q sitting there at 34th while the N arrives and then departs…we’ve all been there. But it doesn’t have to be that way. A quirk of a commute could disappear with a little extra communication.

Comments

40 responses to “Customer appreciation and a Herald Square transfer”

  1. pea-jay

    It’s a similar irritating circumstance with the southbound A and C trains coming into Canal at the same time, both needing to use the express track to access Chambers and points south and east.

    Back to the N R Q issue at Herald. Won’t this go away when the Q heads up into the upper east side or will they try and squish it onto the local tracks to hit 49?

    Reply
    1. Benjamin Kabak

      It will go away then but we’re talking, optimistically, 4.5 years. There’s an interim solution to be had.

      Reply
      1. John-2

        Maybe it will go away. As long as the MTA has to run three lines through the 60th Street tunnel, the problem will exist. Once the Second Avenue subway to 96th opens, the Q isn’t going to be one of those lines, but Astoria residents (and their elected officials) have come over the years to expect two lines to Ditmars.

        If we end up with just the current three lines on Broadway, post-SAS opening, problem solved, since the merge before 57th is gone. But if the MTA restores the W line and moves the N back to the express track full-time to continue dual Astoria service, the problem may lessen a little bit, but it’s not going to go away.

        Reply
        1. JB

          I used to live in Astoria and saw no reason to have two different services. If frequency is the issue, just increase the number of N-trains running on the el into Manhattan. If Astoria residents need to go downtown they can transfer across the platform at any number of stations.

          R to Queens Blvd.

          N to Astoria

          Q to 2nd Ave/96th

          Makes sense to me.

          Reply
          1. JB

            Forgot to mention, N & R say local and Q will be the the Broadway Express.

            Reply
            1. John-2

              That would make the most sense, though the opening of SAS could boost the passenger load on the Broadway line to the point that even aside from the demands of Astoria riders and the Vallone family, extra trains or a restoration of the W service is justified between 57th and Whitehall. Then we’re back to the three trains through 60th Street, and the 34th Street shuffle, at least when the N is the train waiting on the express track.

              Reply
          2. Andrew

            As you say, the number of services doesn’t matter at all – it’s the frequency that matters.

            14 trains run out of Astoria between 8 and 9. Does the Sea Beach line really need 14 trains per hour going into Brooklyn in the late morning rush?

            Running some of the Astoria trains as W’s is a cost-saving device to avoid having to send so much excess service into Brooklyn.

            Reply
      2. Bruce M

        And hopefully, since it will no longer terminate at 57th, the Q-Express will whizz past 49th Street without that annoying forced slow-down to a crawl for no apparent reason that 2 & 3 trains do near Christopher St., and the A does around 23rd Street (both updtown).

        Reply
        1. al

          The slow uptown speeds near 23rd st on A is due to switches for a layup and relay track between the express tracks. It is to reduce the replacement rate on the switch.

          Reply
    2. al

      If you know a bit about subway signalling and holding lights, you can guess which train will leave first most of the time. It requires you be in the 1st car or very close to the front to get the full benefit.

      C has to cross in front of the A southbound to get to the Cranberry Tunnel and points East. If A has 2 greens or yellow over green, it will leave first. If C has yellow over yellow (which, unless the C going to WTC, will set A to red over red), it will leave first and cross over in front of A. Note the Holding Lights as well. The dispatcher is holding whichever side the Holding Lights are on. Once it turns go off, the train on that track is clear to leave.

      Reply
      1. Andrew

        If you don’t know about signals or holding lights (or they don’t give you any clues), use your intuition about which track has more frequent service. (At 34th northbound, that’s the local track.) Holding a train on that track is more likely to delay the following train, so chances are that train will go first.

        It doesn’t always work, but it often does.

        Reply
  2. Billy G

    This is collectivism at work. I ask, what if the conductors would always announce, THAT TRAIN IS LEAVING NEXT? There would be a mad flood of passengers across the platform, emptying one train and filling the other.

    Except for when the train leaves, the two trains (N,Q) are functionally equivalent at that stage.

    The doubt keeps the trains balanced and the platform generally clear of foot traffic.

    This is group manipulation.

    Reply
    1. Andrew

      And not only would one train be much more crowded than the other, both trains would be delayed as the crowd runs off of one train and onto the other.

      Announcing which train will leave first looks like a nice thing to do for the people at 34th, but it would actually delay service for the people already on the train and for everybody waiting further up the line.

      Sometimes what appears to be customer-friendly actually isn’t.

      Reply
  3. John

    I notice a similar situation happening at Manhattan-bound Queens Plaza. Whenever the E and M pull in at the same time, it’s a guessing game as to which will leave the station first and get to Court Sq, since the E has to switch over. The conductor never says anything, and if I’m on the E and the M doors close first, I curse myself. It could be the difference between just catching the G at the next station or waiting another 10 minutes for the one after.

    Reply
    1. Subutay Musluoglu

      A variation of the Queens Plaza situation occurs eastbound in the evening rush when an M and R pull in simultaneously. Usually the R is allowed to go first, and then the M makes its switch from the express track to the local track. Every now and then, the M will go first. So, if you’re on the M, try to be in the first car and poke out your head to take a look at the signal lineup, or hope that the conductors and / or dispatchers are in a good mood and announce who is leaving first. You can either stay put or dash across, but if you’re lucky, you can save at least 2 minutes to your eventual eastern destination.

      Reply
    2. Duke

      In my experience with Queens Plaza, the M is almost always allowed to cut ahead of the E Manhattan bound, but is almost always held in favor of the R Forest Hills bound.

      As for Herald Square, given how utterly pointless the express-ness of the Q is in its current iteration, they might as well just solve the confusion by running everything that’s going into 60th Street local from Canal. Nothing would really be lost.

      Reply
  4. Jim D.

    I wouldn’t blame the train operators and conductors – I suspect that they do not know themselves until one train gets a signal from the tower personnel to proceed. At that point, they need to close down and go. Competent dispatchers and tower personnel are also making decisions based on the greater good of the system and all of the passengers using it. Just use the extra couple of minutes every other day to read another few pages on your Kindle or play another round of Angry Birds and don’t sweat the 90 seconds you just lost because the other train got to go first.

    Reply
  5. Flatbush Depot

    Well in IRT land you cannot hold trains at stations for too long since IRT trains are so frequent and are all on top of each other during rush hours. You hold a train at Nevins during rush hour, it delays the follower since the follower is almost always right behind the leader at either Atlantic (northbound case) or Hoyt (southbound case). Even just a few seconds is too much when trains are right on top of each other.

    Also the frequent service equates to little waiting time for the connecting train when making a transfer if you missed its leader.

    Reply
  6. Al D

    I just don’t get why people can’t just relax and enjoy the video. I did and so did my family. Why all the Twitter rants for crying out loud!

    Reply
  7. TP

    How about last night when at around 11:30pm I was waiting for an uptown train on the express platform at Penn Station and suddenly the 2 that was to arrive in 4 minutes disappears from the countdown timer and the next uptown train is now a 3 coming in 8 minutes. I peer down the tunnel like everybody else and eventually see the lights of a train arriving over on the local platform and sure enough– it’s the 2! I start sprinting down the stairs and under the tracks to get over to the local platform, along with about 30 other people, and we all make it in time, thanks to people holding the doors and delaying the train (even more than it already is?). The train proceeds to make express stops to 96th Street.

    This happens all the time during later night hours at Penn Station and I really don’t know why. Now that we have countdown timers they just remove trains from the timer when they mess with the local/express locations.

    Reply
    1. Tim

      I’m sure there’s probably a good reason for splitting up the local and express service islands at Penn Station, but I just can’t identify what that would be.

      Reply
      1. John-2

        Two reasons. The depth of the railroad tracks under 31st-33rd streets means that if you had the normal mezzanine-above-the-subway-tracks set-up for express platforms, the tracks would have to be placed at the same level as the lower concourse at Penn Station. Putting the tracks right below street level avoids that problem, and by splitting the express and local platforms, it permits better crowd separation for rush-hour passengers, while Seventh and Eighth Ave. passengers needing to cross-platform transfer from express to locals can do so one stop north at 42nd Street. (The same situation applies at Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn. The IRT platforms are split into one express island and two local side platforms, but you can cross-platform transfer one stop away at Nevins).

        Reply
      2. Eric

        They designed that station to discourage transfers between the local and the express due to the large numbers of passengers generated at Penn Station.

        Reply
    2. Andrew

      The trains appear and disappear automatically – there’s no “they” to remove them. If an express is diverted up the local track, it will disappear off the express screen with no warning (and it will probably appear on the local screen at the same time, but you won’t see that from the express platform).

      What “they” should do is use the PA system to make an old fashioned announcement. I’m always astonished at how rarely that station’s PA is used to inform riders of spur-of-the-moment changes.

      Reply
  8. Kevin

    What bothers me most about the N, Q, R situation is this. I have seen many times an uptown N or R leaving 14th St at same time as uptown Q express. Q express arrives into 34th way ahead of the N or R, yet still sits at 34th & waits for local to arrive, discharge & receive passengers, then leave station. Just doesn’t make much sense. If local & express arrive at 34th together, the local should leave 1st b/c it’s a quicker departure. It doesn’t have to switch tracks. It’s not rocket science.

    Reply
    1. Kevin Li

      It sucks right now, but it was worse when there was a (W) in the mix. A (W) would sometimes arrive at 34 Street at the same time as the (N), and the (N) would be held until the (W) proceeded. Meanwhile, there would be a (Q) right behind and an (R) arriving on the local track. It’s was a nightmare.

      Reply
  9. Juan Castillo

    About the (Q), as I recall from Saturday March 31st of this year, I specifically remember riding an uptown train to Ditmars Blvd. After it left 34th St-Herald Square, the (Q) stayed on the express track and went to Times Square-42nd St, then after that it stopped at 57th St-7th Av. The only thing is, it didn’t switch to the local track until it left 57th St-7th Av. I was thinking that in order for the uptown (Q) Train to proceed upward to Queens, it has to stay on its express track. That’s what I’m proposing for the MTA, to have the (Q) Trains start running on the express track between Canal St and north of 57th St-7th Av in both directions without any interference by holding up the (N) and (R) Trains.

    Reply
    1. Benjamin Kabak

      There’s no switch north of 57th St. on the uptown side.

      Reply
      1. mike

        Am I ready this incorrectly? http://images.nycsubway.org/tr…..-47-63.png

        Reply
        1. Benjamin Kabak

          Yep. The switch north of 57th is between the express tracks only. No way to get from express to local tracks after 57th St.

          Reply
          1. pea-jay

            Then this track map is wrong. It shows a merge to the local/60th st line just before the express track/63rd st line. Plus there’s the cross overs south too.

            I dont see why the MTA can’t make full use of the express section north of 42 unless it is also being used to lay up trains between rush because there is no other good place for it.

            Reply
            1. mike d.

              you said it…being used to lay up trains between rush because there is no other good place for it.

              Reply
              1. Seth Rosenblum

                that makes no sense, why wouldn’t they just lay up trains on the tracks to 63rd street?

                Reply
                1. Duke

                  They used to, but SAS construction has knocked the unused side of Lex/63rd out of comission, so they can’t anymore unless they stick them in the tunnel between there and 7th/57th. Dunno what prevents them from doing that, but I’d guess clearance may have something to do with it.

                  Reply
                  1. Andrew

                    Flexibility for reroutes.

                    Reply
          2. Matthias

            Actually, the nycsubway track map is correct. There is in fact a switch from the uptown express to uptown local track, and from the downtown local to downtown express track, both north of 57 St-7 Av. They aren’t always used because of the demand for direct service between Astoria and 49 St (and also to allow storage of out-of-service trains at 57 St).

            Reply
            1. Bruce M

              Yes, I remember one uptown R train I was riding a couple months ago was express for some reason up to 57th St. After 57th, and a lot of confused passengers, it switched to the 60th St. tracks.

              Reply
            2. Kevin Li

              Ditto. I see those track connections too when I look out the front/rear window.

              Reply
            3. Andrew

              Thank you for bringing up the demand issue, which is so often forgotten.

              For some reason, whenever the 34th St. merge topic comes up, somebody proposes to move the merge to 57th.

              But that doesn’t accomplish anything – it just moves the problem. The Q has to merge with the N and R somewhere, and because of the heavy Astoria demand for 49th (i.e., Rockefeller Center), it makes more sense for the Q to stop at 49th and cross at 34th.

              When the Q terminates at 57th, it runs express.

              Reply
  10. digamma

    My favorite thing is when conductors disagree amongst themselves about what’s going on. You see that at Penn Station during weekend construction. The absolute best is when they call customers stupid for not knowing whom to believe.

    Reply

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