When Gov. Chris Christie canceled the ARC Tunnel in the fall, transit advocates from around the region were exasperated. Although the project had its design flaws on the Manhattan side, 20 years of planning and lobbying were flushed down the toilet by one stroke of the Governor’s pen. Furthermore, the region needs improved cross-Hudson rail access and simply cannot afford to wait another two decades to see shovels hit the ground.
Luckily, the major players involved in the region’s transportation policy seem to recognize the importance of cross-Hudson crossings. In a talk last week, Anthony Coscia, the chairman of the commissions of the Port Authority, spoke with financiers and construction magnates on the need to build. Transportation Nation was there and offered up a transcript. Coscia spoke a length about the need to reform pricing and the cost of building as well as the funding mechanisms. He pushed for more private sector investment opportunities as well.
The part that caught my attention was his bit on the ARC Tunnel. I’ll quote at length:
The Port Authority’s role was as a financing partner in the project. We did have certain responsibilities in terms of acquiring real estate on the New York side, but that was more a legal function of our ability to acquire land in the state of New York, which New Jersey Transit didn’t have. Our real role was: we were a $3 billion partner in the project. The reason we were a $3 billion partner in the project is that our mission is to move people between New York and New Jersey. We’re of the view that building another lane in the Lincoln Tunnel isn’t really going to solve that problem, even if we could do it, which we can’t. Mass transit or intercity rail was our way of addressing that problem.
I have to say that—since finance is really where my professional activities have been—I’ve never gone through an episode where I raised $3 billion dollars and it hasn’t been used. That’s never happened. But then it happened. We did raise $3 billion for the project, but I think [Governor Christie], for a lot of reasons that are fundamental of the time we’re in right now, was not comfortable going ahead with the project.
We are still looking for solutions to trans-Hudson commuting, and those solutions will come in some form. I also serve on the Board of Amtrak and I know that Amtrak has remained pretty dedicated to finding a solution to that issue as well, because the Northeast corridor is very dependent upon it.
We have the $3 billion and we are reinvesting it in other projects that hopefully will add to the region’s transportation strength. In terms of “will a new tunnel be built?” I think the answer to that is yes, but it will be in a configuration, of a financial model, that will be acceptable to a broad variety of stakeholders, and that’s still a work in progress.
It’s interesting here to see Coscia talk directly about the funding. Christie has long maintained that New York was not a solid funding partner, but due to its contributions to the Port Authority, a good deal of money came from New York. It wasn’t as a big a contribution as New Jersey’s portion, but considering which state’s residents stand to benefit more, it was arguably a fair allocation of dollars.
Meanwhile, it’s comforting to hear that the Port Authority is still working toward an ARC-like solution. Unfortunately, it sounds as though concrete plans are still a few years off, but hopefully, with a groundswell of support and an obvious need, the region can find something to build before the decade is out. We can’t afford to wait much longer.
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Let’s hope that whatever scheme the PA cooks up it DOES NOT send the ARC tunnel to a dead end terminal under Macy’s. I’d worked with some ARC advocacy groups in the past, such as the Regional Rail Working Group, and our contention had always been to connect ARC to the existing Penn Sta. This would maximize sorely needed redundancy and re-routing capabilities on the most heavily utilized segment -both in terms of TPH and number of passengers – on the entire NE corridor.
The minimal work done thus far on ARC in no way prevents the tunnels from being redirected into the existing Penn Sta. Indeed the original scheme, as conceived by NJT over 20 years ago, called for just that – a connection to Penn.
In addition such an ARC connection would enable through-routing of NJT, LIRR and MNR trains, thus creating a truly regional rail network in the manner of the RER in Paris.
Let’s hope that when it does return it’s with an improved design. It’s not impossible for some good to come out of this mess.
With all the emphasis on HSR lately, what are the odds we see a new Hudson tunnel project by AMTRAK rather than NJ Transit?
Thoughts?
The odds are good. I’ll have more on that later, but forces are conspiring to focus HSR on the Northeast at first.
Building on Ben’s comment, John Mica, chairman of the House Transportation and Ifrastructure committee has been less critical of HSR for a Republican, meaning while he’s less supportive of a national HSR network, he seems supportive of HSR investments in the Northeast Corridor. Considering Amtrak released its vision for Northeast HSR service, and it called for more capacity to Penn Station from New Jersey, it certainly seems possible that Amtrak might be the primary mover on the next ARC.
Truthfully, there needs to be better cooperation between LIRR, NJT and Amtrak to manage Penn Station’s space, on the tracks and above. That could handle the gridlock for the moment at least, and if LIRR and NJT get along, it could eventually allow for joint operation/through running trains at Penn Station and possibly the rest of the system.
Not just better management, they need to reconfigure the existing station for greater throughput by consolidating the separate concourse areas into a shared waiting area, with info/ticketing stands and areas dispersed throughout the level. Increase the number of stairs/escalators in the existing footprint. Large electronic boards, and audio announcements (and perhaps even Twitter/Fb/SMS/email messages if they don’t do it yet) will direct passengers to the correct platform/track for different destinations.
When the Maynihan station is built on other side of 8th Ave in the Farley Post Office, keep the costs down as much as possible. The Farley Post Office is a great building in its own right. The drive to replace and replicate the Penn Station of yesteryear is slated to cost $1 billion, and would likely end up costing more. I think unless you can find private funds for all of it, keep as much of the existing building as possible. We could use the amount saved for other upgrades throughout the region.
The MTA and NJT also need to consider common rail car standards for scale of economy. More doors come for speedy passenger boarding/alighting come into mind.
With Coscia being on the Amtrak board, hopeful ARC v2.0 will create a tunnel that actually has functionality for both NJ Transit and Amtrak. Building two new tubes that can at the very least interact with Penn Station and the East River tunnels (even if expanded platform space is still required) would make the tunnels more attractive not just to New York, but to other states to the north and south on the Northeast Rail Corridor, since the bottleneck at the Hudson also affects trains and service reliability for riders from Boston to Washington.
The ARC as stopped by Christie would have relieved some pressure on the current Hudson crossing, but by dead-ending at Macy’s the benefits to other states was limited. Those states are never going to care much about NJ Transit’s problems, but the more the new tunnels can be used by people not just commuting to and from Manhattan, the more wide-range support at the regional and federal level for restarting the project will be.
Has anyone ever proposed running rail over the George Washington Bridge? If it were possible, NJ Transit could run trains from Penn up the West Side Line, over the GW, and connect about three miles to the four northern-most lines on NJ Transit. Perhaps not the perfect solution, but it would take a lot of pressure on the existing tunnel to Penn, and allow the Metro North to run the Poughkeepsie line to Penn.
While originally intended to carry rail, the GWB later had that provision modified to support more automobile lanes. Currently the GWB is reported to be at or exceeding capacity in terms of car traffic. Removing and reconfiguring for updated or even the originally provisioned rail support would face a lot of heat from many directions. It would take a lot of dominoes falling for a project like this to occur. The possibility is there, but having extra connections (tubes) between NY/NJ may be needed before an idea like this even gets off the ground.
With regards to auto traffic, the capacity limiting factor with the GWB is not the bridge itself but the approaches on the NY side. So, I wouldn’t expect cannibalizing a couple lanes off the lower level to run trains to have too much of an impact on traffic.
On the other hand, consider what the Manhattan Bridge has taught us about suspension bridges and trains. Not the best idea from a structural engineering standpoint.
The issues with Manhattan Bridge is locating the rail tracks towards the perimeter of the deck. Subway approaches on the Manhattan side and the already steep grade influenced the track and road layout. This tends to shift the loads to the outer cables. The original design and structure failed to take this into account. The rebuild over the past decades stiffened the truss and replaced worn components.
The center of the deck, like on the Williamsburg Bridge is a better place to locate tracks. However, the lower deck on the George looks like it can use reinforcement to support heavy rail vehicle traffic. Apparently there was a median on the upper deck when first opened. They were left as an expansion option, like the then unbuilt lower deck. They had plans for either 2 extra road lanes, or 2 light rail tracks. Guess which option they chose.
I think thats the goal if/when they replace the Tappan Zee Bridge. Cars on top/trains underneath.
IF ARC is built to serve regional rail riders, and not just “commuters,” per the PA’s stubborn 1950s-blinderspeak, then perhaps it can literally live up to its name tag, and surpass the dumbed-down, inferior product it had become toward the end of its (one hopes) first iteration. And by being a truly regional product, not just New York and New Jersey, but states beyond, share in the potential benefits, shedding the incessant need from so many parties to harp on supposed equal benefits.
Coscia’s acting as if ARC is a Lincoln Tunnel substitute is very discouraging, though not surprising. The PA’s vehicle crossing need added capacity very bit as much as the region needs increased rail capacity. It’s the vehicle crossings that finance most of what the PA does! In any event, I bet he could have gotten a new modern-standard multi-lane tunnel tube built to a new bus terminal with a new approach road for much less than ARC would cost.
Aren’t vehicular tunnels more expensive than transit tunnels, because of the additional ventilation systems necessary for cars that electric trains don’t need? I’m not certain about this, but I would assume that a train tunnel is at least narrower than a highway tunnel needs to be, and would therefore be less expensive.
If we’re talking about the Lincoln Tunnel though, please someone fix that F’ing helix into the Jersey side portal.
More automobile traffic is exactly what Manhattan does not need. Capacity isn’t just a matter of Hudson River tunnels, Manhattan street space is also limited. Also, as I understand it there is no way buses could match the capacity of a new rail tunnel.
Why would a multi-lane tunnel with lanes wider than needed for a rail ROW and all the extra condemnation necessary for road approaches be cheaper to build than a two-track railroad tunnel?
It wouldn’t. But it might not be much more expensive than a cavern.
TO BEN:
Do you mean that it would be impossible engineering-wise to add yet another tube to the Lincoln Tunnel, or do you mean impossible money-wise?
P.S. Not that I personally want to see more automobile access instead of more mass transit.
I’m just curious what you meant.
Auto tunnels are easier to build than rail tunnels because cars and trucks can handle grades and curves that trains can’t. Compare the Lincoln Tunnel’s rise and drop to the drop you feel when taking the LIRR into Manhattan. By comparison, on the LIRR you barely feel a drop. You also start train tunnel descents way away from the river, whereas the vehicle tunnel entrances in NJ are just a few blocks from the river bank.
But they are saying that it CANNOT be done.
I’m just curious about the reasons.
The approaches on the Jersey side cost next to nothing. A few hundred million, in a project that neared $10 billion. The actual tunnels are remarkably cheap – it’s the cavern that blows the cost out of proportion.
He is saying it cannot be done for political reasons. The polity in NY and surrounding counties act as if by not building road capacity we will reach a transit-travel utopia. We won’t reach it, and if we did it wouldn’t be a utopia. I think there has been an underinvestment in all travel modes, but the out and out hostility to auto use is the most destructive of all to having a cohesive regional economy.
Not at all. The policy preference, at least back when there last was one, is for roads and transit plays second fiddle. The city seems to be somewhat over this hangup, but it’s still strong in Albany. Unfortunately politicians and urban planners tend to have poor spacial reasoning, resulting in the failure comprehend the capacity limitations of roads.
Anyway, this has nothing to do with hostility to autos: if we want regional housing and economic capacity to expand, we need more transit. If we want more roads, we need to contract housing capacity at the very least – and probably need to live with more congestion than we already have.
Well, at least there’s hope. Maybe the George Washington Bridge route isn’t such a bad idea. But I think Amtrak’s West Side Line may be only single track in places. Is there actually room for expansion?
To get the trains to bridge level from the West Side Amtrak line, you’d really have to start ramping the tracks up towards the bridge right after Manhattan Valley. That would mean a little over two miles of new rail tunnel through Washington Heights before you even get to 179th Street and the lower level of the GWB (although thanks to the Palisades, any rail line wouldn’t have to worry about much of a downgrade at all on the New Jersey side of the bridge).
What about a branch off the A?
Much easier, based on it’s location and the elevation of the tracks already in the Washington Heights area.
The problem would be the communities on both sides of the river (i.e. — whether or not the Fort Lee area wants the subway to begin with, and which line if a GWB crossing was built would the bridge get — the A running express from 168th to midtown or the C running local. Passengers in far upper Manhattan would probably react about like Lefferts passengers do to any talk of replacing the A with the C at their stops).
Speaking of the GWB, the local tail tracks north of 168 on the 8 Ave line were actually built to provide, in addition to the turning and storage of trains, a provision for a possible extension onto the GWB and into NJ.
But as Moya says above, it’s not going to happen, for a whole host of reasons. And I’m certain nobody in suburban NJ wants a subway line in their neighborhood. There’s still a lot of middle class opposition to subway extensions. You know, the wrong types of people ride the subway.
Yeah…people who pay their own way. :-p
Honestly, I think the community position will depend on where the line goes and what it interacts with. An el on Route 4 should not generate too much of the usual anti-el NIMBYism (it’s already almost a freeway), and could get support if trains run express in Manhattan to provide a good two-seat ride to Midtown from the Erie lines. It could also serve reverse commuters working at the malls on Route 4, if they make sure to have protected walkways to the stations instead of just endless parking lots.
Express service would be nice on this fantasy line. But, as I noted above, it is the LOCAL tail tracks north of 168 St (present “C”line terminal) which were built with a provision to go onto the GWB.
Is this meant to be serious? You can see 90 minute plus backups every Sunday night full of people undertaking regional travel across that bridge. Do you think more than a fraction of a percent of that travel can be accomplished by a train line into Manhattan? Or is the idea to make people aiming to head from Wayne to Bridgeport to stay home and reserve that space for the privileged class of people with a Manhattan destination? Do you ever leave Manhattan? There’s a wide world out there, get on the GWB this Sunday night at 7:00 and drive west, let me know what you see.
Jesus, Eric, take some Ritalin. He was just commenting about a historical provision on the IND.
Anyway, if people are traveling by car from Wayne to Bridgeport, they should pay the costs of that trip. Part of that cost should be the expense to keep congestion down.
That right Eric, don’t get so bent out of shape. I was simply pointing out, as a matter of historical interest, that the local tail tracks north of 168 on the IND 8 Ave line were built with a provision to extended the line onto the lower level of the GWB. I in no way suggested this should be done. Although, considering the number of buses that come into the GWB Bus terminal certainly the market for a rail line is already there. And many of those tens of thousands of people who presently transfer from a bus to the “A” train at 175 St would now have a one seat ride to midtown. So no, the idea is not a bad one at all. Not to worry though – it’s not going to happen.
Settlement patterns immediately across the bridge probably don’t justify a subway. LRT could make sense, and it might even make more precious road space available to cars by compacting the space buses would otherwise take. Although that effect would probably be negligible.
Can we just agree on one thing? Those of you who continue to call the cancelled ARC terminal the “station in Macy’s basement” – please STOP. You are only perpetuating a falsehood, showing your ignorance on the issues, and not helping move the discussion forward. Most of us are in agreement that the ARC project was far from perfect. Yes, it lacked track connectivity to the existing Penn Station. Yes, it lacked a connection to the East Side/GCT area. Yes, it was a stub ended terminal deep under 34th Street between 6th and 8th Avenues.
But the terminal’s elevation was much deeper than the lowest level in Macy’s basement. The terminal lay entirely within the footprint of 34th Street. In fact, one of the reasons why the number of tracks was reduced from 8 to 6 was so the cavern would not encroach beyond the footprint of the street, thereby requiring an easement in perpetuity. There was not even a pedestrian connection into Macy’s – in fact there was only one access point to the terminal on the entire Macy’s block – a proposed stairway that would have been built from an expanded Herald Square subway mezzanine into the structure on the NW corner of Broadway and 34th Street. As an aside, this structure, currently occupied by Sunglass Hut and a giant Macy’s billboard, is notable for being a holdout structure that was intentionally built by one of Macy’s competitors in 1900 to embarrass the world’s largest department store. Anyway, it’s the expanded subway mezzanine that would have functioned as the primary eastern access point to the ARC terminal.
The ARC project as it was conceived had many flaws and as someone who worked on it during the study phase in the late 90s my feelings on its cancellation are mixed. I watched first hand, disappointingly, as the project’s scope and functionality was slowly whittled away by political and budgetary pressures. Unfortunately, this is how our region works – good intentions that should be yielding truly great legacy projects, the kind of which this city was built on, are instead shortchanged by a thousand cuts, whether they be onerous bureaucratic hurdles, lengthy environmental approvals, NIMBY activists, community boards, high costs, agencies that refuse to cooperate, governors who say one thing, and do another – I could go on and on. We all know this sad story.
However, in spite of this, the project that emerged with its many shortcomings still served the primary objective: expanding Trans-Hudson rail capacity. While it did not do so in a way that satisfied everyone, including myself, nevertheless it represented progress on a daunting issue. It could have been improved upon in the future. Its cancellation represents a significant setback by at least a decade, if not longer, of solving the issue of Trans-Hudson rail capacity. While the possibility of an Amtrak solution is tantalizing, the winds blowing out of Washington does not bode well for intercity rail, Rep. John Mica notwithstanding. Let’s hope that the PANYNJ emerges as a champion on this truly bi-state issue and lives up to the terms set out in its founding compact. Enough already with stub ended terminals. If they need to be deep, so be it. What we need is true regional rail in a manner that knits together our far flung metropolitan area in a rapid and efficient manner, without agency and institutional barriers.
There is no meaningful way in which ARC Alt P was improvable. There is no way to connect the cavern to Grand Central – the grades would be too steep, especially for the ultra-heavy locomotives NJT wanted to use the tunnel. It could only be connected to the ESA cavern, providing the same service to Long Island that can be provided tomorrow if the agencies learn to cooperate. And although a connection to Penn Station was (despite occasional comments) perfectly feasible, it would be difficult to build such a connection after the cavern opened.
In the short run, the most cost-effective way to increase trans-Hudson capacity is to install better signaling between Newark and New York, allowing 30-32 tph. It would buy a few years while ARC Alt G were built to add connections that are currently unavailable.
When ESA is operational (2016?), the peak demand from LIRR @ Penn may shrink. That should give NJT some more time and space to operate during rush hour.
That is if the Sunnyside Yard station allows for free transfer between Penn and Grand Central bound trains, or an arrangement at Woodside and Jamaica Stations to do the same.
It would help, a little. Right now the limiting factor is not track space at Penn, but traffic on the approach tracks. The current signaling maxes out at about 24 tph or a little less.
The current plans for Sunnyside put it west of the ESA/Penn split. It’s terrible planning, preventing the construction of a transfer between ESA and Metro-North-through-Hell-Gate – but that’s how they’re planning. At least a Sunnyside Junction could always be opened at the right location in the future, which is more than I can say for ARC.
Actually during the peak periods the Hudson River tubes are handling 28-30 TPH, same as the NYC subway does on the Queens Blvd express tracks. Check out the NJT and Amtk timetables and count up the trains.
I did, and it’s 25, not 24 – sorry, I missed 2 trains. It breaks down as 4 Amtrak and 21 NJT (13 NEC+NJC, including 2 trains listed on both timetables; 6 M&E; 2 M-B).
Yes you’re quite right. I stand corrected. I’d done a count about a year ago for the Regional Rail Working Group. But the design calls for a theoretical 30 TPH. And I’m wondering how this design TPH is compromised by the presence of so many locomotive powered push-pull trains. As I wrote elsewhere here, MU trains are far superior in this type of rail environment. Each axel throughout the entire train has a motor, maximizing adhesion. The tractive effort is more evenly distributed, which makes for faster acceleration and, by virtue of dynamic braking, shorter, faster stops, as well as superior hill climbing capability. With more MU trains in the mix and fewer push-pulls I dare say they could squeeze a few more trains through. This is why NYCT can do 30 TPH (the actual peak timetable) on the Queens Blvd express tracks.
It’s not just that. Fixed-block signaling is limited to about 24 tph on mainline track. The moving block signaling used on the central segments of the RER A and the Berlin S-Bahn allow 30, and very short blocks used on subway systems allow similar or higher frequencies, but it’s possible to do better.
It’s not just deceleration rates. The 32 tph limit of ETCS is for trains traveling at 125 mph, at which speed deceleration is much slower than even a super-heavy push-pull train operating at 60 mph.
I think the thinking behind locating the station there is to service the expanding LIC business district. Gotham Center/Queensboro Plaza/Court Sq is supposed to be an office heavy mixed use development area to compete with Jersey City and suburban office parks. The bedrock is close to the surface around there, thus favorable for high-rise construction.
If they (amtrak?) ever get around to it, they can do high density TOD ala Grand Central Terminal. The rents and leases could go towards HSR.
The ultimate fatal flaw in the 34th St dead end design: it is blocked by a NYC water tunnel just to the east. End of story.
And NJT’s love of locomotive hauled push-pull trains is another part of the problem. Sure push-pull is cheaper but MU trains are far superior in this type of rail environment. Each axel throughout the entire train has a motor, maximizing adhesion. The tractive effort is more evenly distributed, which makes for faster acceleration and, by virtue of dynamic braking, shorter, faster stops, as well as superior hill climbing capability. And in icy weather an MU train, with all its multiple pans up on the wire, is less likely to get stranded dead than is a push-pull train with only one loco with one pan up.
It was not necessarily the end of the story. Again, another falsehood perpetuated by ARC critics. There were a number of options developed to deal with the water tunnel in the future. These concepts were not disclosed publicly for a number of reasons. A connection from the 34th Street terminal to the lower level of GCT still could have been achieved. To repeat, ARC as it was configured was not the ideal solution. However, a project of the scale required to cross the Hudson, stop at Penn Station, and go on to GCT would not have been acheivable at one time. Alternative G still would have required a phased approach. The same reasoning was being applied to the 34th Street terminal – it was assumed that a future generation of planners and policy makers would undertake the next step with respect to a eastward extension.
First, Alt G with the GCT connection was still cheaper than Alt P without, even before the cavern’s cost blowouts.
Second, the elevation difference between the ARC cavern and the GCT lower level is too great for heavy locos. The plans I’ve heard about talk about connecting the ARC cavern to the ESA cavern, which is perfectly useless.
A flawed project from the start , with little ownership from NY politicians , including Schumer and Clinton ( who never cared at all ) .
Until our politicans care enough , this will never get off the ground