As Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s plans for a convention center in Ozone Park continue to draw headlines, more and more interested groups and interest groups continue to weigh on. Today, Charles Bagli of The Times checks in with convention experts, attendees and planners, and what they have to say deserves some serious consideration. Essentially, they say, poor transit access to Ozone Park and its out-of-the-way location make it ill-suited as a potential site for a massive convention center.
“The industry is skeptical about the viability of the Aqueduct site,” Jeff Little, a trade show organizer, said to The Times. “It has the potential to be a big white elephant. It’s true that there are large shows that can’t go to the Javits, but that doesn’t mean that they’ll go to a large facility at Aqueduct.”
Bagli summarizes the skepticism surrounding the proposed plan:
Conventioneers and other visitors come to New York expecting to see Broadway shows during their down time, eat in famous restaurants and shop on Fifth Avenue, trade show managers and hotel operators say. None of that exists at the relatively remote Aqueduct racetrack in Queens, where the Malaysian company, Genting Group, hopes to build a 3.8-million-square-foot convention center and 3,000 hotel rooms and enlarge its existing gambling hall.
More to the point, they add, Aqueduct is a 60-minute subway ride from Times Square. They fear that some conventions, trade shows and conferences will decide to go elsewhere…
Mr. Little’s view was amplified a week ago at a meeting of the New York chapter of the International Association of Exhibitions and Events in Manhattan. After listening to a presentation by a top Genting executive, Christian Goode, one trade show manager jumped up and asked the crowd, Who wants to see the Javits closed? Not a single hand shot up in assent from the 125 people in attendance.
With the Cuomo Administration noting that nothing has been set in stone and any convention center plan will include “a comprehensive master plan reflecting community and shareholder input,” the Ozone Park plan continues to suffer from a lack of integration into the aspects of New York City that make it New York City. While it may be close to JFK Airport, it simply isn’t near the attractions of the Big Apple.
“We know that Javits is the most successful convention center in the country in terms of bookings,” Mark Schienberg, head of the Greater New York Automobile Dealers Association and host of the annual auto show, said. “But people want to be in the heart of Manhattan. Do they want to be on the fringes of Queens?”
Even more practical, though, are the concerns about access. Genting has not indicated it will do much more than fund a super-express A train, and based on recent history, that idea appears to be a non-starter. A comprehensive plan involving the reactivation of the LIRR’s Rockaway Beach Branch line could cost hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars. Furthermore, if a new convention center does not lead to the redevelopment of the current Javits Center, support from groups such as the Regional Plan Association may dry up as well.
Ultimately, this convention center plan, which came out of left field during the Governor’s speech, has a long way to go, but stakeholders are making appropriate noises early on. Better and faster transit access that doesn’t rob riders further down the line of train service must be a part of the equation, and as the convention industry and regional transit advocates voice these concerns, hopefully someone in Albany is listening.
37 comments
I agree with your comments: people who come to NYC for a convention want to be close to the amenities that the city is famous for. Aqueduct is close to nothing but the airport.
I am not sure that re-activating the Rockaway Branch could solve that problem. Even if it could cut the travel time to Manhattan from 60 minutes to 30 minutes (and that is optimistic), it would still feel like a long way.
Compare that to the Javits, which will be ten minutes from Times Square once the 7 Train extension is completed, and you begin to see what a hurdle the Aqueduct site would need to overcome.
+1
“out of towners” don’t want to be in Queens, they want to be in Times Square, bottom line.
Marc may be right, but there are still benefits to being near the airport, as R. Graham says below. And I don’t know how typical shows work, but if you need to be on the floor half the day and can spend the rest of your time doing other things in Manhattan, I don’t see a huge problem with a 30 minute trip to Queens – that is, if we really get a 30m trip.
Non stop service on a restored LIRR rockaways line between the Racino/convention center and Penn&GCT would be a pretty convenient deal. There’s no reason why the LIRR should have to operate it either, though it would probably be helpful. The service should be demand responsive though It’s a clear shot into Manhattan from there and there’s no reason why it can’t be done in under 30 mins if everything is properly rehabbed. They can even make the convention center stop automated with turnstiles in both directions and then there’s no reason why any train service would require conductors. Extend the AirTrain there and I think that should quiet a lot of the concerns.
Bottom line is as long as transport upgrades are done thoughtfully and not on the cheap I like the idea than better than the existing Javits center.
The RR union is probably why the LIRR will operate it. And why it won’t be automated. People will ask, why can’t everything be automated? (And, of course, over time it can be.)
All for the fare of $50 each way.
Yet these out of towners have no problem going to the Bronx to see the Yankees. Or to Queens to see US Open Tennis (Intentional omission there). So you mean to tell me if you toss a table gambling casino along with a Convention Center, where you can get your money wasting on like they do in Atlantic City, people aren’t going to take a train ride if you gave them a 20 to 30 minute direct shot?
Blasphemy!
I think you greatly underestimate the psychological barrier of being a considerable distance away from the center of town. As several people have mentioned on this thread, out-of-town convention centers have struggled in other cities. To non-New Yorkers, it is unappealing. I mean, on a nice day you can walk from the Javits to many midtown destinations, an option you would not have at Aqueduct.
You also underestimate the train ride. As I mentioned upthread, 30 minutes is optimistic. Suddenly, it has become “20 to 30” in your post. It’s 20 from Jamaica already, and as Aqueduct is farther away, 30 is the least it could be, and that’s if they use the LIRR. If they connect it to the subway, which makes more stops, it would be longer.
Of course, a convention center with an attached casino clearly would get some business. But when major conventions are weighing NYC vs. other cities, I am quite sure the Aqueduct location would be cited as a drawback, not a positive attribute.
Opposition from trade show regulars may force Genting and Cuomo to take a more serious attitude towards the mass transit aspect of the Aqueduct convention center/racino, though given the issues voiced on what out-of-towners want to do in New York, it leans far more towards a direct link LIRR option from Penn Station and/or Grand Central to Ozone Park.
If you’re going to cater to people coming into New York, and not regular New Yorkers familiar with the subway system, you’re more likely to get those people staying in Manhattan hotels to take a passenger train where there’s less mingling with the regular folks than on a subway (and to be fair, less of a chance Roy and Miriam from Knoxville are going to get on the wrong subway train or miss a transfer point, so that they end up at 179th Street or Astoria instead of at Aqueduct).
On the other hand, if the real goal is to promote eventual full casino gambling at the site, than linking the Rockaway line to the IND Queens Blvd. service makes more sense, because you want to make access to the place more convenient city-wide, not just from midtown Manhattan. But if nothing else, this does show Genting that they’re going to have to bring more to the table in terms of access if they’re going to make the convention center aspect of their plan viable.
The problem is that, from a capacity standpoint, there’s no justification for a new line. The only time the A is at any risk of overcrowding is rush hours in the peak direction, and not many people need to go to a convention center at 5:30 pm or into Manhattan at 7:30 am.
The only issue is travel time (waiting time plus running time), but there isn’t much room for improvement there without either spending a lot on an unnecessary capacity increase or disrupting the commutes of real New Yorkers.
If Genting is willing to pay the full costs of the improvements, fine, but they’ve already said that they’re not.
This convention center idea is a bad idea. I doubt it will go anywhere.
If the area develops as a gambling and tourism mecca in its own right, a convention center might work. But it sounds to me like Genting is just going to have what is essentially a giant mall, and is even receiving a monopoly on local gambling (is that true? not sure). Part of what makes Vegas “interesting” is the opportunity to go from place to place – actually, it’s part of what makes any interesting city interesting, including many parts of New York not ruined by Moses & Co.
Out of the way? Right by the airport is out of the way?
Exactly. Might as well say the airport is out of the way (which it is), but traveling convention attendees would still have to go there regardless of where the convention is being held, so why not just build the convention center right next to it?
This is what I said from the beginning. Look, sure, you can be a airport only convention center. One of the airport cities that pop up all over asia and the middle east. But those succeed on cost. Far cheaper to do business in those places, closer to suppliers. And other benefits.
The unique proposition of hosting a convention in NYC is access to what NYC has to offer — hotels, shows, restaurants.
As I said before, ask Chicago how well their convention center on the edge has done them. They’ve been trying to find ways to move it closer to the Loop for 30 years at least. San Francisco on the other hand has a multi-buiiding convention center situated right in the middle of town and a museum district. Blocks from Union Square. And close to Caltrain to bring in conventioneers and presenters from Silicon Valley.
NYC doesn’t need the biggest convention center, it needs the smartest one that helps to promote our unique value.
Well said.
The biggest problem New York had for conventions was that it had very few hotel rooms. That has now been changed due to a hotel building boom.
To my knowledge, Chicago’s convention center is neither accessible by rapid transit (commuter rail only), nor is it anywhere near an airport. Its not a good comparison.
Chicago has its most successful convention center outside the city in Rosemont, which is next to O’Hare. And now that you mention it, I think this must be the model that Cuomo and Genting are thinking of. It’s far from the central business district, near the airport, and close to the next-to-last stop on the Blue line. But there’s so much parking there (and especially between the L station and the hotels and convention center) that hardly anyone bothers taking the L to Rosemont.
having a convention in queens is the same as having it in suburban cleveland or des moines or kansas city or jacksonville, except a lot more expensive
in other words, there is no reason to have it there
Stop it. Queens is as NYC as any place else in that there’s mass transit that would take you to all the NYC attractions you want within an hour. You don’t need to be staring at the Empire State Building or whatever else you want to see when you’re inside the convention, but they are there within a short distance away if you need to see them.
No, she’s right. Having it in Manhattan is probably the same problem, except even more expensive.
By that logic, Jersey City is more NYC than Queens!
I’d rather some parts of the New Jersey shoreline part of New York than areas like Rockaway or Bayside
Listen here, “Judge”. I’m from Bayside, and it’s a hell of a lot nicer than ANY part of New Jersey. And Breezy Point, Queens, is far more beautiful than anywhere in Long Beach Island.
No need to knock Queens, our most diverse and largest borough. If you need to knock anything, Jersey is right there. And Chris Christie’s in charge. Perfect material.
Sorry, I certainly could have phrased that much better. What I actually meant to do was to kind of back up TP against Jeff in questioning the idea that all of Queens is inherently more “New York” than places outside the city proper but nearer to its core, places that to a greater degree share more qualities/”feel” with what we view as New York than some actual parts of the city (Staten Island or swaths of city’s eastern/southeastern edge).
* “Judge” is not used to suggest some special capacity of mine to decide upon matters, just merely used because it’s my surname. And for whatever it’s worth as an additional disclaimer, I live in Astoria and quite like it; I don’t envision myself leaving the neighborhood (unless I could afford that $115 million penthouse at One 57).
You can afford it. Just win the next big Mega Millions or Powerball jackpot.
I thought “Judge” was meant to be condescending.
I apologize for jumping to conclusions.
As a side note, I now live in Park Slope, and note the difference in the ‘feel’ of the neighborhoods; I actually miss Queens a lot.
Heh. Lately I’ve started to view Queens as the place Brooklyners go when they grow up. :-O
I dunno, though, I really need an inner ring neighborhood more than I need a particular borough. I could be happy in Williamsburg, Astoria, Sunnyside, Ridgewood, Park Slope, LIC, etc.. I don’t think I’d like Canarsie or Bayside or the Rockaways simply because the distances kind of blow, never mind street ambiance.
It’s good to be near a few different subway lines, too.
you have ALL missed my point.
tourists want to visit and stay in manhattan, not an hour subway ride away in the middle of queens.
i live in brooklyn, near NOTHING. i am not insulting queens, i am saying that i can’t imagine that location being popular with conventions. the appeal of visiting NY to non-NYers is visiting manhattan. if that becomes difficult, then why bother?
The location is Siberia.
Wait, New York is Siberia?
Southeast Queens is not the New York that any ocnvention goer or tourist ever wants to see.
There’s no there there.
This will be the biggest white elephant in the history of the world.
The real story is the NYC real estate cabal . They did the great bait and switch. We need a subway to Javis .. but as soon as it is built then suddenly we don’t need the Javis??
Gee waterfront property with subway access worth $$$$$$$
This brings us all back to the stupid decision to reject building the Jets a stadium over the rail yards. A well designed football stadium would have been – could STILL be – the perfect structure to augment the Javits, giving New York City a world class convention center and spearheading the redevelopment of that neighborhood. In a sane world, that idea would be revisited.
Football stadiums are used 8 days per year. The rest of the year they are mostly vacant, since their are few events that need their capacity. Thus they form giant holes in the urban fabric.
Sure, NFL stadiums have a prestige factor. But in a place like Manhattan, the damage they do is much greater than the gain.
Baseball stadiums are more worthwhile, though. They draw a huge crowd 81 days a year, not 8. Basketball and similar arenas are smaller than football stadiums, and are more useful for non-sports events, so they too are worth having in a city. It’s really only football stadiums that are a problem.
That stadium was the worst proposal ever.
A huge stadium right by the choke point of the Lincoln Tunnel and Wesr Side Highway. Sure would be fun for the traffic on event days.
I think this proposal demonstrates that Cuomo and Bloomberg don’t have their ducks in a row. Bloomberg is spending billions of dollars to (among other things accomplished by the 7 train extension) make it even easier to get to the Javits, and then Cuomo comes along and brings up a plan that will diminish the return on that investment by inducing conventions to be somewhere else. I’m shocked, SHOCKED, to learn that Genting contributed a significant amount of money to Cuomo’s campaign.