Excavation work on the cavern that will house the Second Avenue Subway’s 86th Street Station continues as of February 23, 2013. Photo: Metropolitan Transportation Authority / Patrick Cashin.
With approximately 45 months to go before Phase 1 of the Second Ave. Subway is ready for revenue service, the MTA has a status update for infrastructure watchers. A new photoset documents the station cavern excavation process at 86th St. With the lawsuit surrounding station entrances resolved, work has been steadily moving forward.
Meanwhile, for residents around the 72nd St. area — where giant structures loom over the avenue — a relief from blasting has arrived. The MTA officially proclaimed blasting in the area over as of last Thursday. The final charged was for an elevator entrance at the southeast corner of 72nd St. and 2nd Ave. As you may recall, an explosion went awry in the area last August.
Finally, in a piece of less optimistic Second Ave. Subway news, the federal government’s sequester could impact the project. As Tanya Snyder at Streetsblog DC wrote recently, the FTA’s New Starts program could lose around five percent of its funding, and some of that money has been earmarked for the Second Ave. Subway. It’s unclear what, if any, impact such a cut could have on this project, but by now, we’re at the point of no return. Phase 1 will happen, and it’s time to start thinking about Phase 2 and beyond.
66 comments
The federal contribution to this project is so low as a percent of the total that 5.0% off the money going forward won’t matter much.
To get that limited federal funding, the MTA did years of paperwork and process. If it had started construction years earlier without it, it could probably have built up to 125th Street without borrowing more.
That sums up my opinon as to Phase II. Just do it. As planned to 125th Street, and add the DeKalb to Rutgers connector with the idea of merging the SAS into the current F line north of Delancey Street in a future phase III.
Or have Phase 3 turn east at 2 Avenue and go to Brooklyn.
Prediction: i suspect at least three of the stages will be built, because of the probability of a Democratic Party control of all branches of Government for at least the next Decade (Starting in 2015). The Unions and NY Legislators will demand it get built, and it will (With a lot of $$$$$ coming from Washington).
Political party won’t matter going forward from here now that we have actually seen the cuts happen. In all honesty the economy won’t be affected in dire ways like some have claim but to go back off of these cuts and to go back towards continuing deficit spending and adding back to the over bloated national debt would turn the markets inside out and we would see the economy topple.
Your comment is so wrong I can’t even explain how many ways it’s wrong. I suggest you go read the works of Paul Krugman. Or Keynes’s _General Theory_. Or Veblen’s _Theory of the Leisure Class_.
In short, your comment is wrong on both the economics and the politics.
Why would Democrats throw lots of money at an area that reliably votes for Democrats? It’s more likely that money will be thrown at places that are at least theoretically up for grabs. There have been several recent occasions when Democrats controlled the entire federal government, including during the current presidency and during Clinton’s presidency and in neither case was major infrastructure funding sent to NYC. The fact is that the major projects underway now got funded during the term of “He Whose Name Shall Never Be Spoken”.
My point was merely that these claims were wrong:
(1) “Political party won’t matter going forward from here now”
(2) “In all honesty the economy won’t be affected in dire ways like some have claim”
(3) “adding back to the over bloated national debt would turn the markets inside out and we would see the economy topple”
All of these claims are just wrong. #3 is the most blatantly wrong.
Actually want to make a political or economic prediction regarding the future of the Second Avenue Subway? Well, that’s much more complicated.
Is Krugman the guy who used to work for Enron?
I think its the Krugman who won the Nobel Prize in economics.
For trade economics, right? It wasn’t for fiscal policy or writing columns saying that people who disagree with him are evil.
You’re thinking of Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly.
The comments on this site have been devolving for months. Ben, just wondering if you plan to do anything.
I’m open to suggestions. Got any? Here or via email.
You’re just using the standard WordPress commenting system, correct? Making people register and login to comment might be a good first step, along with turning on approval of initial comments from new commenters.
Allowing only registered commenters to leave comments also means it’s easier to revoke their commenting privileges (ie ban them) if they’re being disruptive.
Might also not be a bad idea to lay out some commenting guidelines.
Lastly, and perhaps unfortunately, you might consider beginning to moderate these comments a bit. Nothing big or elaborate, just responding to comments you don’t want on the site with a “hey, we like to keep it positive here.” Doing this might make other commenters act in that role as well–right now it’s unclear what kind of commenting culture you want.
That was a lot, I’m sorry!
Making people have an account wouldn’t be enough (I have an account, and there are people who say I am obnoxious.) Also, you should moderate, edit, or block non-constructive comments. Kind of like what Eric said.
AG, this is not an “insiders only” blog, but I don’t think the sort of discussion instigated by David Brown’s comment above:
“Prediction: i suspect at least three of the stages will be built, because of the probability of a Democratic Party control of all branches of Government for at least the next Decade (Starting in 2015). The Unions and NY Legislators will demand it get built, and it will (With a lot of $$$$$ coming from Washington).”
is not the kind of discourse that used to be found on this site. Even the enthusiast commenters were somewhat knowledgeable–this comment is just stupid on so many levels it’s hard to know where to begin with it.
i don’t agree with the comment the person made – because it’s impossible to predict…. however to say politics has nothing to do with transit is very short sighted – since the political climate affects everything that has to do with transit.
I have seen this site is frequently linked to on Reddit, and it unfortunately seems that some of the commenters migrated over. Now there are a bunch of unemployed 22 year old political theorists posting from their mom’s basement. The comments on this post read just like a typical thread or the r/politics subreddit, be sure to check your brain at the door if you decide to visit it.
This site used to be full of comments from informed posters who had a working knowledge of the NYC transit system. It was clear that the readership skewed older and that many worked in transit related fields or had a serious interest in transit systems. Now it is littered with uninformed comments from people linked here from news aggregating sites who don’t know the first thing about the MTA, transit operations, or underground construction. Or even worse, individuals here to post some sort of political agenda which has no place on this site.
Unfortunately, I agree. I used to really enjoy reading these comments, now it feels like an uphill battle whenever I read them.
I hear what you both are saying, and I’m working on a solution. Please stay engaged. The more knowledgeable commenters there are here, the easier it is to keep the discourse up.
WTF is Reddit? Oh right, it’s that website where people post memes and shit.
Besides, I am not one of these Redditors, just if anyone is wondering. I used to work with the MTA, and now I work with the FBI.
I never knew this was an elitist site… I thought this was for anyone who was interested in transit…. sort of like transportationation.org…? Well if it’s only for industry insiders – then it most assuredly should be “closed off” to the public.
Anyway, I thought the point of this site was for everyone, not just registered users, to leave their opinion, be it stupid or…?
In short my comments are actually right. The more in debt this nation is the less valuable the currency remains. In a capitalism balance will find a way to restore itself whether you take active measures to do so or a downturn occurs and forces your hand. The long downturn we experienced was not only because of the housing bubble as that was the initial cause. It was because the value left in the system is short. Made obvious by the dubious attempts to prop up the economy with stimulus spending that changed nothing for a long time.
All wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
This isn’t supposed to be an economics blog, but it would be nice if you would please stop spreading misinformation.
The downturn was caused by a financial system crisis, which was related largely to the amount of fraud in the system. (Nothing has been done to fix that: read the blog Naked Capitalism for more on that.) This caused a demonetization event in money market funds, which was the immediate cause of the crash.
The *unemployment* problem, however, is a simple “general glut” problem which can be cured with Keynesian deficit spending *if it goes to employ people*. The “stimulus” was (a) too small, as Christy Romer pointed out in advance; and (b) targeted far too much to the rich.
Money sent to rich bankers and CEOs does not, in fact, cause more people to be employed. Money used in projects like the Civilian Conservation Corps, which directly employ people to do useful things… does, in fact, cause people to be employed doing useful things. You can decide for yourself which category the Second Avenue Subway, with its extremely high bids compared to comparable projects elsewhere, is closer to.
No, balance does not “restore itself” in capitalism. That is magical thinking. Anyone who’s studied capitalism *at all* knows about booms and busts.
In short, I’ve studied this intensively. You haven’t. You don’t know what you’re talking about, and you’re spouting nonsense.
Um, it works a little differently over here.
I suggest you go read the works of Paul Krugman. Or Keynes’s General Theory. Or Veblen’s Theory of the Leisure Class.
Honestly, reading your snarky replies to everyone’s spelling/grammar/typographical errors makes me want to stop reading comments on this site. What is your problem? Who gives half a shit if something is spelled wrong or typed a bit incorrectly? You can still completely understand what the commenter was saying. It doesn’t matter if it came out in underscores instead of italics. Spend your time doing something more worthwhile than irritating the shit out of all of us. Please.
Then it shouldn’t matter, should it?
Anyway, the original comment by D. R. Graham makes complete sense. I disagree with Nathanael.
D.R. Graham doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I suggest you go do some reading on the history of economics. I’ve studied it. You haven’t.
Yes… actually, I have.
I also happen to work with the US Government.
Not to turn this into a discussion of economics, but if the markets are so worried about our national debt, then why are treasury bonds trading at such low interest rates? Over 30 years, the interest on treasuries are lower than projected inflation, such that the country can borrow money now for less than it will eventually pay off.
Basically because the markets of the world have no confidence in the stability of any of the other major alternative currencies. As long as people are wary of European default and its effects on the Euro or on the idea that much of China’s economy is a Potemkin Village, the U.S. doesn’t have to offer decent interest rates, because it remains the ‘safe harbor’ currency.
(And to be honest, when it comes to how the economics of major New York City construction projects work, Rodney Daingerfield’s dissertation in “Back to School” has it down pretty good. Or at least better than Princeton economists)
the federal reserve is also keeping interest rates artifically low… and engaging in quantitative easing (while ppl in Congress call China a “currency manipulator” – lol).
Sorry, wrong.
Although it’s possible for the Federal Reserve to drive interest rates down arbitrarily low, *if the markets were worried about this*, then we’d get *inflation* from the artificially low interest rates.
There’s no inflation to speak of. Therefore the Fed’s interest rate choices are not significant to the matter in question.
I should unpack that a bit. If investors were concerned about the national debt, they’d buy *corporate stock* or *gold* or *land* or whatever, and the result would be a drop in the value of the dollar as hard goods went up in price relative to it — in other words, inflation.
The national debt is an irrelevance. In real (inflation-adjusted) terms, the UK had a larger national debt in the Victorian period.
my head hurts – run on sentence, tense changes, subject verb agreement, oh my!
The Democrats fully controlled the federal government in 2009-10. Even though the political climate there was pro-stimulus, whereas today Obama is also trying to cut the deficit, there was no money for extra phases of SAS.
The conflict between the different factions within the “Democratic Party” is currently more relevant than the nominal tag of “Democratic Party”.
A bit like in the pre-Civil-War period.
BEN, do you know anything about the Lexington Ave./63 St. station?
I mean, do they intend to get the Third Ave. entrance opened up BEFORE service actually starts on the SAS?
I would hope that they don’t wind up doing the same thing as they did with the Dey. St. Passageway:
Finish it and then decide to let it sit there unused until the SAS is actually running.
Oddly enough it seems to be one of the slowest-progressing parts of the project. I don’t think this is going to be an issue.
Im just curious as to the timeline of making the station inhabitable for F train riders. You would think that they would want the only station currently being used to be finished ahead of the others.
That’s right!
Opening the Third Ave. entrance as soon as it is finished would make sense even if the construction of the SAS itself had not even begun yet.
45 months to go? Wow. Six years ago, the extension was set to open in 2013, around this time of the year.
I was thinking pretty much the same thing. Those photos of the tunnels are nice, but it just looks like it’ll be eons before anything is running thorugh them.
The problem is the phases in which these contracts have to be awarded for stations. Look at the 7 extension. It’s almost done. Mind you its one station, but just imagine how far we would be on 2nd Avenue if the stations work all got started at the same time right after the tunnel boring was completed.
What kind of fuel does the huge earth moving equipment run on? Wouldn’t fumes be a problem underground?
Also, what do they do with all the rock that’s removed?
They dump all the rock someplace else, which is the same thing as what all the other TBMS in the world do.
I believe fumes are an issue. As much as possible is electrically operated, but I think there’s complex ventilation systems for the things which aren’t.
The 72nd Street Station should be built now, since the tunnel is past it. The station woud take about a year to complete, and a one tracked shuttle could run from 72nd Street to 57th Street. This would connect the Broadway line (N R Q) to the F, which is connected to the Queens Blvd line (E M F R). Considering trackage is already ready for those other stations, this can come into effect in about a year.
That is an interesting proposal!
You mean why not begin actual service to those stations
one by one, rather than wait for ALL of Phase 1 to be completed.
The ridership of such a shuttle would be ridiculously low and 72nd Street isn’t all that far ahead of the rest of the project anyway.
That is actually a good idea. You mean open each station individually, right? Because a one-track shuttle ain’t gonna relieve any congestion.
Too bad the MTA doesn’t have that type of thinking. If they did, 72nd Street would be already open, 86 St would be ready for service in 2014, and 96 St would be in service by 2015.
And wouldn’t it make sense to then work on getting 106th and 116th Streets open rather then wait for 125th (the most difficult part of Phase II) be completed? At least much of the tunneling in that stretch was done 40 years ago!
Still, cut & cover for the stations themselves… $$$
Yeah, basically. If a crossover (an X switch before the station) is added, (Q) trains could run there, but that might be too early. That is why I proposed the shuttle. Thanks for your replies.
Or a third pocket track after the station.
Doing so would actually extend the completion date for the overall project. General Orders and Service Disruptions would take places to allow for connecting signal relays further up the line as work continues towards its final stretches.
Part of these lessons were learned when the 63rd St line was built and finally connected to Queens Blvd.
It’s best to just let the whole thing open at one time.
The (S) would close if anything happened, which would be unlikely. It’d be replaced by buses. The (S) could be built pretty quickly, as I said, about a year.
@AG: Don’t waste the kcals here. Most don’t understand the concepts of savings of money and capital formation and don’t want to have explained to them the consequences of their spendthrift ways.
They’ll spend other people’s currency until there’s no more to spend. And based on how currency works, when they run out, they just make moar! (to the detriment of retirees on a fixed income)
Based upon your handle, I’m sure you know what real money is.
Retirees aren’t on fixed income; they’re on fixed inflation-adjusted income (i.e. Social Security, nest egg houses, stocks, etc.).
Increasingly persons are unable to afford to “retire” as traditionally known.
As someone currently living off his investments (and studying economics not merely for entertainment), I probably understand all of this better than you do.
Money is a pretty complicated social convention (or shared illusion, if you will). It is crucial to realize that this social convention is NOT threatened merely by printing money. It is threatened by OTHER things, however.
At the moment the major threat to our money is the massive criminal activity which the bank executives have been allowed to get away with (read the archives of Naked Capitalism for endless, endless stories of this), which undermines the core trust which is the basis of the entire system.
Nathanel – you do realize that there are more than one “theories” in economics”??? telling other they are “wrong wrong wrong” is exactly the reason we have so much turmoil in the system. The are parts to just about every theory that are correct and parts that sometimes don’t work.
Interest rates and money supply have direct correlation to everything that has happened in the economy. And in fact they are a part of the “fraud” you stated elsewhere that caused the economic collapse. The government coerced the banks to keep the housing and construction industries artificially inflated. That wasn’t fraud – that was direct government coercion in the market – with a wink to the bankers that they would be taken care of if they take the blame. The laws were changed to allow the “fraud” to take place.
That said – the topic has strayed too far from transit issues – so I’ll leave that as it is.
Of course there are multiple theories. There’s also this little thing called “empirical evidence” which can be used to disprove some theories.
Some popular economic theories are wrong, wrong, wrong. In particular, the ones claiming that increasing government debt is somehow injurious to the economy. Those are WRONG WRONG WRONG and centuries of evidence has proven it.
The laws were not actually changed to allow the frauds to take place. The frauds which are being committed are outright violations of the current laws.
Please go read Naked Capitalism and google “fraudclosure”. The long and short of it is that major banks decided not to actually file the legal paperwork for mortgages or land purchases. The question of why is an interesting one, but none of the possible explanations are honest. The banks expect people to simply accept their claims that they “own” mortgages and that people “owe” particular amounts of money on them, but it turns out they frequently have no paperwork at all to prove this, and several times it’s been demonstrated that a “foreclosing” bank didn’t have any legal rights in the particular property they were foreclosing on AT ALL. This hasn’t stopped them.
There’s lots and lots more stuff like that: assessing fees against borrowers which are in direct violation of the terms of the signed mortgage agreement, in order to induce foreclosures. Retroactively stuffing already-defaulted mortgages into “mortgage-backed-securities” trusts, in violation of the organizing papers for the trusts. Blatant and direct frauds.
The bubble in the housing market is one thing; the actual fraud is another. The fraud is very real, and you don’t realize that it happened. As I say, go do your research if you want to know what’s been going on. I did. You haven’t yet.
I can’t prove it, but I believe that the endemic fraud being committed by major banks against borrowers and investors is causing many individuals and businesses to avoid taking out loans, and avoid investing in both bonds and mutual funds. I believe that this “money on the sidelines” is hurting the economy, though again I can’t prove it.