When the MTA wraps up the East Side Access project sometime ever, the Long Island Rail Road will be able to offer more train service into Manhattan, and more train service into Manhattan via the tracks that have fueled decades of growth on Long Island is never a bad thin — unless, of course, you are afraid. “Afraid of what?” you may ask. Afraid, the answer is, of unsightly train cars displacing scenic and landscape-enhancing parking spaces.
The story goes like this: When ESA is finished, the MTA will expand service offerings along the LIRR’s Port Washington branch. More service, however, means more train cars, and more train cars requires more storage space. The current plan is to extend the tracks at Port Washington to allow for storage for 18 additional train cars, but some folks in North Hempstead don’t like this plan, Newsday’s Jennifer Barrios reports today.
The LIRR is considering two options for extending two tracks at the station, [LIRR chief planning officer Elisa] Picca said. Its preferred option requires it to purchase an 18-by-439-foot parcel in a parking lot owned by North Hempstead off South Bayles Avenue. That plan would remove 40 parking spaces from the lot, she said, adding that re-striping the existing lot could replace the 40 spaces. The alternate plan involves putting the track extensions in part of a parking lot the LIRR already owns along Haven Avenue. That would result in the loss of 140 parking spaces, but could be completed without the cooperation of the town…
Last month, LIRR officials met with town officials, including Supervisor Jon Kaiman and Councilwoman Dina De Giorgio. De Giorgio, a Republican who announced her bid for supervisor last month, said the proposals amount to creating an unsightly storage yard in Port Washington. “The idea of storing these massive trains, adding two storage tracks to Port Washington, will completely ruin the character of the town,” she said. “This is creating a train depot in Port Washington.”
…Mitch Schwartz, co-president of the Port Washington Chamber of Commerce, said his primary concern is parking in an area where parking is already notoriously tight. “If we’re going to give up even 40, there’s got to be a compelling reason, something on the other side that is going to get us better service,” Schwartz said. “I’m not convinced at this point.”
So the head of the Chamber of Commerce can’t see the obvious benefit of added train service, and a candidate for town supervisor thinks that storing two trains will ruin the character more than storing a bunch of inert cars already does. These are NIMBY arguments community leaders and elected representatives make to the media with a straight face. Aren’t you tempted to say, “If North Hempstead doesn’t want train service, let’s not give it to them”? Because I am.
60 comments
how are you supposed to get to the LIRR station from home?
you have to drive
“That plan would remove 40 parking spaces from the lot, she said, adding that re-striping the existing lot could replace the 40 spaces.”
so how many cars will get damaged from smaller spaces?
Maybe we should double the size of the parking spaces and put in some rubber bumper dividers too? The whole point is to make efficient use of space that promotes transit and doesn’t overly promote some sort of self-indulgent car culture.
long island is mostly single family homes and lots of them are 15-20 minutes DRIVING time to the LIRR station. same for NJ in lots of places.
you still need a car to get to the train station
Perhaps, but the road network is deliberitly designed to prevent padestrian access &transit by increasing road with & greater speeds.
Add a deck and a ramp over the tracks for the cars. Bid out the parking deck for PPP.
There is another possible option. The Mets-Willets Pt station on Port Wash line has 6 tracks. Demo the south platform and there is space for a 6 track yard. You can build fences and a structure to enclose it all. Layup the trains there overnight and run them reverse peak to increase service out of Great Neck and Port Wash. Leave Port Wash yard trains for Peak service only.
Nope, the Port Washington branch is single tracked between Great Neck and Port Washingon, and there is 0 room for reverse equipment runs during rush hour. The trains in the expanded yard would be used for Peak Service, not off-peak service. When ESA is completed the LIRR would be able to run a lot more trains along the Port Washington Branch, but the residents of Port Washgington, Plandome, or Manhasset won’t get a single extra train if they can’t extend the yard at Port Washington.
~Patrick @ The LIRR Today
Take a look at where 301 and 303 trains come from. They run out of the Port Wash Yard but start passenger service at Great Neck and Little Neck respectively.
An empty train can come into Great Neck from Willets at 6:50AM ahead of the Port Wash bound 408 (7:04AM) so that it can relay and slot in behind train# 415 (6:56AM) to NY Penn as train# 301 (7:06AM). Another empty train can come in from Willets after train# 408 and relay back to Little Neck as train# 303 (7:22AM). Afterwards, there isn’t another eastbound train until the (Great Neck) train# 300 (7:33 AM), which waits until 7:55AM to get to Little Neck as the NY Penn bound train# 305 (7:55AM). Something similar can be done for the 307 (8:04AM) and 309 (8:24AM) trains out of Little Neck and Great Neck.
Use the trains you save on 2 Port Wash origin trains bracketing the (8:08AM) 425, one between the (7:19AM) 419 and (7:36AM) 421, and one between the 301 and 303 that has a stop at Main St and/or Bayside.
P.S. add 2 switches. 1 each west of Great Neck and Little Neck. That would allow for the empty 301 train to come in from Willets behind the 408 and cross over to the westbound track after the 415 departs and not have to wait for the 408 to clear Great Neck. Similarly with 303 train at Little Neck.
I guess the question then is, do you need an SUV for those 15 minutes or can you get by in a compact? But the real question is, why does the town want to give up 140 spots instead of cooperating by making do with a few slightly narrower ones? The whole issue of parking spots sounds like a giant red herring to me.
very few truck based SUV’s these days. even then your normal sedan can easily be scratched in a small space. and smaller spaces means its hard to open the door and actually get out of your car.
lots of rich people in that area who will have boats and you need an SUV to pull those
“sounds like a giant red herring to me”
You mean that station parking isn’t really a big deal in station towns across the region? It’s just cover for something? Station parking is an obsession in these towns. It’s a huge deal.
i guess people can bike to the station in 20 degree weather in their suit and tie
Well that, and the point of having a 40 minute train ride to NYC is undercut if you have a 30 minute walk to the station. Quality of life is made out of elements like this.
“i guess people can bike to the station in 20 degree weather in their suit and tie”
You bet they can alen. That’s no problem at all.
People could walk if those towns made it legal to build high-density housing near stations.
I bike 15 minutes to my home station (Montauk) every day, in the winter too.
It is possible for people to not be incredibly lazy.
~Patrick @ The LIRR Today
So we should abandon sane urban planning principles so a few people can use a boat hauling mega-car as a commuter vehicle?
The appropriate solution is using a bus or LRT service, which your local politicians shouldn’t be loath to provide. Then you don’t need a car.
Bicycle.
At up to three miles at a moderate pace, you can ride in street clothes and not break a sweat. The whole area is closer to the station than that, generally much closer.
It’s healthier, more fun, and (though those living in the area can certainly afford the third BMW for the station) cheaper.
where do you leave your bike?
and what if it’s raining? i don’t see too many people biking on hudson river park when its cold and raining. funny how the cyclists don’t bike when the weather is bad
“where do you leave your bike?”
I used to lock it to a bike rack on 5th Avenue, and take off my locks, lights etc to bring with me to the office. But now I pay $20 per month to lock it in a parking garage.
“and what if it’s raining?”
I’ve learned that even if there is a 100 percent change of rain, it doesn’t rain 100 percent of the time. Shifting your leave time a little and checking the radar is enough to avoid getting wet on the way in. On the way out, since I’m heading for a shower anyway, it doesn’t matter.
Since I’m over 50 and ride nine miles each way, I don’t do it every day. Generally four days per week. I take the day with the rainy morning off. But in this post we are talking about a quick, 2-3 mile ride to the train station. That’s nothing.
I also didn’t think I it was possible, for 20 years. Then I did it. Wish I had done it all along.
I used to jog too, though I hated it, until I had kids. No time. Added 40 pounds over a few years. The bike is exercise in the course of life, with little extra time.
I moved to New York City (from London) last August. I ride nine miles each way to work. Including the Monday of Sandy, I estimate there have been about five days since then when weather prevented me from making the round trip by bicycle. It is perfectly possible to cycle in pretty much all weathers.
Aside from Sandy, last year was not an extremely snowy year, number one . Number 2, I’ve had jobs that I had to weat suit and ties, and I’ve had to go to interviews in suit and ties. I’m not about to bike ANYWHERE in a SUIT AND TIE, and SUITS are expensives and it would reflect poorly upon me if I came to a job interview, work, or an important meeting hot and sweaty. Bicycling is not the answer for everyone!
One of the few good trends in recent years is that I don’t have to wear a suit and tie. Just business casual, which I carry in a bag that hooks on the rear rack of my bicycle.
As for suits and ties my outlook is this: if an employer believes your appearance is important enough to require suit and tie, then they ought to provide a small locking closet to store a few suits, shirts, and shoes.
Then you can bike to work, cool off for a few minutes, and change into your suit, just as I change into business casual. You can get the suits cleaned at a dry cleaner near work rather than near home.
As I said, I didn’t think I could ride a bike to work until I did it, and then I found out I could and wished I had done it earlier. As I ride on dark, cold winter mornings I see young men and women out jogging to try to stay in shape. They will then go back to their homes, shower, change, and THEN do a commute to work. That will not last, and neither will their ability to stay in shape.
I have been a station biker for years, albeit at an urban station, loved it. I would not dream of imposing it on anyone else though. You are commanding people to bike in the dark for months out of the year, a highly unappealing prospect. Cold is really not a big deal on a bike, especially vs. walking, in fact I’d rather bike a given distance in cold weather than walk it, just makes it quicker. But biking in rain is miserable. It rains a lot and unpredictably in NY. I would routinely get to my home station and walk home right past the bike because of a summer thunder storm. Add to that that most people just aren’t cut out for this type of travel, especially as an everyday, non-discretionary part of commuting, and it’s juts not going to displace many cars.
I agree on the sweating part, but from the other direction: by the time you emerge from a NY transit commute in warm weather, you are sweating anyway, having appended a modest bike ride on either end makes little to no difference.
i like to run 2-3 miles once or twice a week on hudson river park. when july hits and i sweat and stink after my run and take the train back home i’ll see if people move away from me
I bike in all weather.
1) You ride to work in the coolest part of the day. Your ride home and shower.
2) Biking at a modest pace is the effort level of walking, not running.
3) You clothes get sweaty, but you cool off quickly. I carry my business casual wear in a bag that hooks to the rear rack, and change when I get there. No problem.
I have baby wipes, a towel, and more deoderant at work. I use them an average of twice a year.
Dude, the world doesn’t revolve around what you do . You bike to work? Who cares? That doesn’t mean its a good solution for everyone.
Some people have families and drop their kids off on the way to work . Much harder to do, have your kids on a bike with you while you then go to work. Some people carry important supplies with them on their way to work, such as tools, electronic equipment, etc, and from the weight of this sometimes you need an actual car.
As for wearing professional clothes, going to an important meeting, job interview, or in a job in which you’re required to wear suits won’t look good if you’re all sweaty or rained upon because like a broke cheapskate, you biked to work instead of driving or taking the train.
Sheesh, I’ve seen you blather about your life. Why would you shit on Larry for doing it?
Aren’t you tempted to say, “If North Hempstead doesn’t want train service, let’s not give it to them”? Because I am.
Ben, let me try to give you a streight foward explamation. Old school conservatives like these don’t like change. There world view is in the car culture of the 1950’s when suburban migration was underway. There mindset doesn’t allow for new realities to exist including $4 gallon gas, the need for good & reliable public transit amung other things.
Someone needs to remind these polls that it’s 2013 & Jerts, A & S, Gimble’s & Stern’s no longer exist.
Why the assumption that this is “conservative” ideology at work. Port Wash is well known as a highly desirable town and part of that desirability is being home to a station on the highly desirable Port Wash line. It sounds like they want ESA and want to keep the lots as they currently exist. Ultimately, the probably can’t have both, but they’ll dig in until something gives. I have no idea how Port Wash votes, but do you think such a plan would be welcomed with open arms in a monolithically liberal L.I. town? Great Neck is one such town and has been battling the LIRR over a pocket track proposal for going on three years (at least).
Selfish obstinacy is a red flag for conservatism, and LI is rife with it. So is NYC, in fact. You really need to look no further than NBBL, Marty Markowitz, or Christine Quinn.
And the frightening part? Scarcely a Republikan among them.
It’s more like “If North Hempstead doesn’t want train service, lets take more of their parking spots than necessary.” That’ll solve both problems — the providing train service problem and the vengefully make North Hempstead residents pay for their foolishness problem.
I’m tempted to say many things.
a) We don’t need the extra storage space at Port Washington. Just terminate the trains at Plaindome, and use the space betweeen there and Port Washington to store trains.
b) We don’t need a train yard at Port Jefferson. Just terminate the trains at whatever town along that line is willing to allow a yard. Those futher out can take a bus to there.
c) We don’t need a third track on the mainline. Just eliminate rush hour service in the peak direction past those communities that object. You’d have an express track in peak direction, and a local track in the other direction for reverse commuters.
Regarding the second point, at this moment I don’t think any of the intermediate locales would want the rail yard. And, speaking as an alum of Stony Brook University, I wouldn’t underestimate the traffic generator of said institution.
Don’t blame the NIMBYs for this. American commuter railroads have oversize yards, since they prefer parking trains instead of running them. They also place yards in expensive locations because We Must Have CBD Yards, for example West Side Yard instead of a suitable low-cost location in Long Island or Jersey.
Parking lots around train stations aren’t conducive to walkability, but neither are big railyards.
what is the point of running trains to long island during off peak periods rather than keeping them in manhattan for the afternoon rush?
Sure. Plenty of room in Manhattan for keeping idle trains. Why didn’t LIRR think of that?
DOH!
duh, you don’t have to keep all the trains there. just the ones not used for the off peak hours
You seem to have a blind spot about how broad a definition off-peak is. 4AM waiting to go westbound is no less off-peak than 2PM waiting to go eastbound. Whatever the shortcomings of LIRR – and I’m sure there are many – I’m willing to give them enough credit to be able to read their own train schedules.
That is, unless you have some evidence that they’re deliberately deadheading trains to ends of the lines that won’t be needing them, and for some reason other than lack of storage space. Do you? Are you suggesting they run empty trains for fun?
If you’re not, then allow me to propose a given in this equation. The LIRR has some idea about how many more trains it expects to be running once ESA opens. They’ve already figured out where they’ll stay on the west end of their run. GCT or Sunnyside. The issue becomes where to keep them on the various east ends. They are saying that their projections call for two more near Port Washington.
I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume they actually do. So the question becomes: What’s the best way to make that happen?
Maybe they should build a multi-level car park over the existing one in Port Washington. Take the two tracks they need – AND double the available spaces. That, coupled with ESA, will encourage more rail commuters on that branch.
What actually encourages rail commuting is good service all day. This means off-peak frequency that’s high enough to attract riders who have other options. For a line the length of Port Washington, a train every half hour on weekdays and a train every hour on weekends is not enough; the minimum base should be 15-20 minutes all day, 7 days a week.
I am not going to give the LIRR any benefit of the doubt on that subject, not when it’s shown hostility to integration with other railroads, a necessary first step for the adoption of other good practices.
There’s still an issue with nighttime storage, but if the lines are run with a good schedule it’s possible to figure places in the system, not necessarily on the PW line itself or even in Long Island, where land is cheaper. Stations are meant to be surrounded by apartment buildings, offices, and shopping centers, not parking for any kind of transportation.
Commuter railroads stations do have parking lots and are meant to, because people often have to DRIVE to the station. Also, in areas full of single family homes, they aren’t too keen on having more apartment buildings. Isn’t that what the denser parts of NYC proper are for?
No, that’s what train stations are for. Commuter rail is too good a transportation mode to be wasted on glorified peak-hour parking lot shuttles to the CBD.
Is anyone else suspecting this Alen guy is Ryan/Someone back from /dev/hell? The schtick looks awfully similar.
Anyway, at least in a sane world, Alon is dead-on right. A moving train is doing something an idling train – and by idling, I mean it’s actually probably in the state of being on, but not moving – is not: collecting revenue. Oh, and, maybe some riders will be attracted by the additional service too, if you care about such things.
I won’t comment about Alen, but I’m glad that that other user has been banned. I feel like I was the first user to witness the transition of “Someone” to “Ryan” here. Before this post, all posts were by the former name, afterward, they were by the latter.
I don’t want to linger about this any further, but I’m dying to know: Ben, would you be willing to say if the user you-know-who tried to post anything to SAS after you implemented the ban? If you must decline to answer, I will understand.
Oh, good point. The LIRR probably hasn’t considered the huge potential to use the Hudson tunnels to take their trains from Penn Station to New Jersey to find somewhere cheaper to keep trains waiting for the evening peak.
Or maybe those tunnels are already at 98 per cent capacity and it would be a stupid waste of that capacity to run empty trains through them.
I’ll leave it to the group to decide which is more plausible.
Those tunnels are near capacity in the eastbound direction in the morning and in the westbound direction in the afternoon; if the LIRR sends trains west, it’s going to use them in the exact opposite direction.
Penn Station should not have anything but through running peak hours, in fact, at least not for the suburban railroads. Maybe Amtrak has an excuse. LIRR and NJT don’t help people by jealously guarding their fiefs.
We ex-NYers know NY is dysfunctional. This is a good example.
There is a long-long ongoing similar dispute further up the line in Great Neck. I think the LIRR has been banging its head against a wall for several years there. You can Google Colonial Bridge pocket track and get the gist.
I don’t really understand the knee-jerk criticism of Port Washington though. The town has a modest, station centered downtown area. Taking out a ton of parking sports does very much either undercut the purpose of the station or it forces some sort of surgery on the downtown to replace the spots, which seems politically impossible. A successful ESA would imply a greater demand for station parking, wouldn’t it? I also imagine that Port Wash residents must already deal with the annoyance of having people from all over use their local streets as station parking all week. Port Wash is the last station on the oine, and it probably has a large catchment area feeding in from points north.
I counted at least 11 surface lots and some vacant lots within the vicinity of the station. They even store a fleet of school buses directly across the street from the train platform. There’s also a cemetery, golf course, and one guy with a conspicuously large back yard not far away from the terminus and any of those, if it were up to me, would be put to good use as a rail yard.
that’s why people there pay such high property taxes. mostly for the schools and the services they provide the kids. how are kids supposed to get to school if mom and dad have to be on a train at 8am?
Actually, not to be morbid, but if you look at the map, there is a cemetery nearby, right along the east side of the tracks, I wonder if they could store some trains there in any unused space, especially if they idling to a minimum, but I assume they thought of that already.
how are kids supposed to get to school if mom and dad have to be on a train at 8am?
I figgure there are a few ways…
1. a family member.
2. nanny.
3. bussing.
4. zombie from the local cemetery. LOL
Not sure to what degree walking is an option there.
Mom AND dad both have to be on a train by 8am? That’s a little much for most families I think.
Anyway, any kid over about age 10 can walk or bus themselves to school.
Walking/busing to school, either alone or with friends, is often practical even for kids much younger than 10 (it obviously depends a lot on the location and other constraints)…