Friday was indeed a good day for Bert and the National Associate of W Lovers as we learned that the MTA will be restoring W train service to Astoria later this year in order to prepare for the debut of the Second Ave. Subway. The Q will run to 57th St./7th Ave. until the Second Ave. Subway “later this year,” per the MTA. That may be an optimistic timeline for Upper East Side service, but one way or another, this subway line will open soon. The W lives to tell that tale.
For a visual representation of what this service change means, check out this unofficial mock-up of future service a Redditor published a few weeks ago. The MTA has yet to release their own map showing the change or addition of the Second Ave. Subway, and I wonder why. They could opt to follow the WMATA’s strategy of showing lines in progress to build public knowledge and excitement, but it seems that we won’t see an updated map arrive until the subway is just about to open, as we did with the 7 line.
Although the W train grabbed headlines earlier, the MTA announced a few other Second Ave. Subway-related milestones. The 96th St. station is now running on its permanent power supply though power lines have become a controversial part of the eventual Phase 2 work. More on that next week. Additionally, the final track crossover north of 72nd St. was completed. The MTA will award final contract modifications next week. As hard as it is to believe, a part of the Second Ave. Subway will soon become a reality.
Meanwhile, as we look forward to new subway service, we have to contest with weekend changes. After the jump, this weekend’s slate of service advisories, as sent to me from the MTA.
From 11:30 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, 1 service is suspended.
Take the 23AC, M3, M100 and free shuttle buses instead.
- For service between South Ferry and Chambers St, use shuttle buses; transfer between 23 and buses at Chambers St. Downtown 23 trains run local from 72 St to Chambers St. Uptown 23 trains run local from Chambers St to 96 St.
- For service between 96 St and 168 St, use free shuttle buses or the A at nearby stations. For service between 168 St and 191 St, use free shuttle buses or the A at nearby stations.
- For Dyckman St, use M100 (days/evenings) to/from the Dyckman St A station. Transfer between 23 and A trains at 59 St.
- For 207 St, use the nearby A station; transfer between 23 and A trains at 59 St. For service between 207 St and 242 St, take free shuttle buses. Transfer between buses and A trains at 207 St and between A and 23 trains at 59 St.
From 11:30 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, Flatbush Av-Brooklyn College bound 2 trains run local from 72 St to Chambers St. Wakefield-241 St-bound 2 trains run local from Chambers St to 96 St.
From 11:30 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, Flatbush Av-Brooklyn College bound 2 trains skip 86 St and 79 St. For service to these stations, take a downtown 2 or 3 to 72 St and transfer to an uptown 2 or 3 local. For service from these stations, take an uptown 2 or 3 local to 96 St and transfer to a downtown 2 or 3.
From 11:30 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, New Lots Av-bound 3 trains run local from 72 St to Chambers St. Harlem-148 St bound 3 trains run local from Chambers St to 96 St. Overnight, 3 service operates between 148 St and Chambers St.
From 11:30 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, New Lots Av-bound 3 trains skip 86 St and 79 St.
From 11:45 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, Pelham Bay Park-bound 6 trains run express from 3 Av-138 St to Hunters Point Av.
From 6:45 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. Saturday, February 20, and Sunday, February 21, Flushing-Main St bound 7 trains run express from Queensboro Plaza to Mets-Willets Point.
From 12:01 a.m. Saturday, February 20 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, A trains are suspended in both directions between Euclid Av and Lefferts Blvd. A service operates in two sections: between Rockaway Blvd and Far Rockaway, every 20 minutes, and between Inwood-207 St and Euclid Av. Free shuttle buses provide alternate service, operating between Euclid Av and Lefferts Blvd stopping at Grant Av, 80 St, 88 St, Rockaway Blvd, 104 St, and 111 St.
From 11:45 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 6:30 a.m. Sunday, February 21, and from 11:45 p.m. Sunday, February 21 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, Brooklyn-bound A trains run express 59 St-Columbus Circle to Canal St.
From 6:30 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. Saturday, February 20 and Sunday, February 21, Brooklyn-bound C trains run express from 59 St-Columbus Circle to Canal St.
From 11:45 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 6:30 a.m. Sunday, February 21, and from 11:45 p.m. Sunday, February 21 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, Coney Island-Stilwell Av bound D trains run express from Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr to 36 St.
From 12:15 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. Saturday, February 20, and Sunday, February 21, and from 12:15 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, Jamaica Center-Parsons/Archer bound E trains run express from Roosevelt Av to Forest Hills-71 Av.
From 11:45 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, Coney Island-Stillwell Av bound F trains are rerouted via the E line from Roosevelt Av to W 4 St-Wash Sq.
From 11:45 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, Coney Island-Stillwell Av bound F trains skip 169 St.
From 11:30 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, J trains are suspended in both directions between Hewes St and Broad St. J service operates between Jamaica Center and Hewes St. Take free shuttle buses and 46F trains instead. Free shuttle buses operate between Hewes St and Essex St, stopping at Marcy Av. For direct service between Brooklyn and Manhattan, consider using the AC or L via free transfer at Broadway Junction.
From 6:00 a.m. to 12 Midnight Saturday, February 20 and Sunday, February 21, M trains are suspended in both directions between Myrtle Av and Essex St. M service operates between Metropolitan Av and Myrtle Av all weekend. Take the JL and/or free shuttle buses instead. Free shuttle buses provide alternate service between Hewes St and Essex St, stopping at Marcy Av. For direct service to/from Manhattan, use the L via transfer at Myrtle-Wyckoff Avs.
From 11:45 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 6:30 a.m. Sunday, February 21, and from 11:45 p.m. Sunday, February 21 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, Coney Island-Stilwell Av bound N trains run express from Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr to 59 St.
From 11:30 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, Q trains are suspended in both directions between 57 St-7 Av and Kings Hwy. Q service operates between Coney Island-Stillwell Av and Kings Hwy. Free shuttle buses operate as follows:
- Express (non-stop) between Kings Hwy and Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr.
- Local between Kings Hwy and Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr, making all stops.
- For service To Manhattan, take the DFN from Coney Island-Stillwell Av. For service to Coney Island-Stillwell Av, take the DFN at 34 St-Herald Sq or the DN at Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr.
From 6:30 a.m. to 12 Midnight Saturday, February 20 and Sunday, February 21 R service is extended to Jamaica-179 St.
From 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m., Saturday, February 20 to Sunday, February 21, Jamaica-179 St bound R trains run express from Roosevelt Av to 71 Av.
From 6:00 a.m. to 11:30 p.m. Saturday, February 20 to Sunday, February 21, Bay Ridge-bound R trains run express from Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr to 59 St.
From 11:45 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 6:30 a.m. Sunday, February 21, and from 11:45 p.m. Sunday, February 21 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22, Bay Ridge-bound R trains skip 45 St and 53 St.
30 comments
“Pelham Bay Park-bound 6 trains run express from 3 Av-138 St to Hunters Point Av.”
Wow, that’s quite an express run! To do that without reversing would require going via Concourse Yard, Coney Island, then the loop at Corona Yard. MTA proofreaders are on vacation again.
Also, I’ve always wondered: doesn’t the following phrase technically include the entirely of Saturday, while they obviously mean Fri night-Sat morning, Sat night-Sun morning, and Sun night-Mon morning?
“From 11:45 p.m. Friday, February 19 to 6:30 a.m. Sunday, February 21, and from 11:45 p.m. Sunday, February 21 to 5:00 a.m. Monday, February 22”
When I checked the MTA website, the statement concerning the weekend #6 train indicated Hunts Point Avenue. If there was a mistake on the website it seems to have been corrected.
I’ve wondered why the MTA could not just define the words: “All Weekend” to mean from midnight Friday night to 5am Monday morning inclusive.
As in: “Pelham Bay Park-bound 6 trains run express from 3 Av-138 St to Hunts Point Avenue all weekend.”
Or the “From Canal Street to DeKalb Avenue the R train will travel by the N-line over the Manhattan Bridge all weekend.”
Yes, I know that the R-train does not run after midnight on Saturdays and Sundays, but in this case there is a service change that will be taking place all “weekend” whenever the R-train runs in this example.
Just a thought.
Mike
Some of the Steinway tube shutdowns start at 2:30AM. Other work, like express runs, starts as early as 11:30PM. They do put “WEEKEND” in huge letters on the posters, but indicating the exact timing is still necessary.
I would hope that the actual map would make the Upper East Side wider, perhaps by shrinking the Hudson River.
The map as presented raises a question — why did we spend so much money for that little area? The reality is that the Upper East Side has far more population than the Upper West Side. And it also has far more jobs, thanks to the hospital/educational complex on the East River, Hunter College, etc.
When I was back at City Planning I created a metro area cartogram of the metro area based on the jobs in different places in 1990 (place of work data). Among the findings — more than 200,000 jobs on the Upper East Side, more than all but a handfull of CBDs at the same time. Of course the map was dominated by Manhattan south of 60th Street, but the Upper East Side was a big area.
Most of the best off people working on the Upper East Side drive there. This extension might not change that. But an extension to 125th, allowing MetroNorth passengers to more easily transfer to a subway that takes them closer to the East River waterfront, might.
Curious- what is being done on the 1 line that there is no service on the entire line?
From what I recall, there’s Cortlandt St work, then track work in the 125 Street area, then station work at 168 and maybe 181 St. They could run a shuttle train from 242 to Dyckman, I suppose, but perhaps there’s some work in that segment as well.
This is the reason why i missed the days when the MTA would state the purpose of doing the weekend work in emails (6 trains are express from 3av-138 St to Hunts Point Av due to platform work at 149 st… etc.). it would help the very few of us that would want to know the purpose of the work. And here are my curious questions:
1. What is being done on the Brighton Line between Alantic-Barclays and Kings Hwy? (CBTC testing? 🙂 )
2. Why is the R extended to 179th? (I wonder if it is switch work at 71st-Continental)
3. The J has been curtailed to Hewes St. for quite a number of weekends now. Is it track work on the Willie B? (hopefully the MTA is making the track blocks smaller to allow more tph, especially with the L poised to be shut)
I believe the Brighton line is having some switch work done at Prospect Park, among other things like general track work.
Not sure what the deal is with the R; it’s likely work in the yard leads east of 71st Av.
The J is having work done at Essex Street interlocking. They’re finally redoing the switch that has been out of service for about a year (causing weekend Ms to.run to.Chambers). Fixing the signals on the bridge to increase capacity makes a little too much sense to be done (it seems): aside from the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, after the 1995 crash the metaphorical pendulum swun significantly toward safety, at the expense of capacity and speed.
It’s not good to have a line — the N — that switches between express and local at some arbitrary time.
In the new days, which will be like the old days when there was a W, the N ran express in Manhattan *except* when the W was not running… which was most of the time (nights and weekends). What kind of BS was that?
Why should somebody getting on the N and wanting to get off at a local stop in Manhattan have to know *if* the W is running?!
And there’s such an easy solution: keep the N as it is (24/7 Manhattan-local) and have the W run express when it does run. (I’m assuming the W will be running on nights and on weekends).
exactly
W should be express, extended to 9 avenue and N local all times.
That would be a wasteful service. 9th Ave is not a very busy station that warrants a second service and W trains running to/from 9th will cause delays on the D, N and R lines.
“And there’s such an easy solution: keep the N as it is (24/7 Manhattan-local) and have the W run express when it does run. (I’m assuming the W will be running on nights and on weekends).”
If the W-train as you suggest were to run express, what would be its southern terminal? The W-train is NOT slated to run during nights and weekends!
In the 1970’s before the city’s fiscal crisis, the N-train was the basic express 24/7/365 between 57th Street-7th Avenue and Coney Island via the Broadway/Fourth Avenue Express/Sea Beach lines. The fiscal crisis of the 1970’s had the N-train assume the duties of the EE local train. The 20-year closure and repair of the Manhattan Bridge had the N-train all local all times, and traveling to Astoria – leaving its Manhattan express tracks for relocated B and D trains from the Sixth Avenue line. The 2000’s brought about the W-train as the sole 24/7/365 service with the rebuilding of the Coney Island terminal, and later as an Astoria local – allowing the N-train to again run express.
Basically, over the recent decades the N-train has been tasked with replacing what ever service that the times dictated – while still attempting to provide speedy ride for its Brooklyn & Queens base of riders.
Only local trains can terminate at the Whitehall Street station, and the new plans for the W-train are attempting a) replace service that would be vacated by the Q-train (which was brought in to replace service vacated by the W-train in 2010); and allow the N-train to run express which it did when the W-train ran before 2010. It is a return to a previous pattern of service.
There’s talk of a train shortage, and the need for trains to service the Second Avenue line. While some want to extend the W-local train into Brooklyn – the question of available trains loom. Every terminal stop in Brooklyn is already covered or in the case of 9th Avenue deemed to be not needing additional service. So just where would your proposed W-express train terminate?
Mike
Thanks Mike. People don’t understand that the N wad always an sea beach express. Why cause more interlining and instead of delining the routes. The N and Q should run express from 57 street instead of 34 street. This N stops at 49 street always cause delays on The Broadway Trunk Line. You don’t see the 2 or 3 switching to the local tracks to serve 50 street
Skipping 49th would save no switching, the merge point would just be moved to 57th. There are some technical obstacles with using that interlocking on a regular basis. Nothing serious, but the expenditure is not justified.
Those interlocks have been upgraded since the Manhattan Bridge reconstruction. The delays have more to do with spacing of two express station ? instead of some local station in between them
“Only local trains can terminate at the Whitehall Street station.”
Good answer. I had not thought of that.
Could the W not run local from Canal? Can it get from the express N tracks to the Canal St R local tracks?
You could go from local to express and back to local tracks but that does is cause delays she the express are reaching thier speed for thier express run after leaving canal
From a previous message:
“Could the W not run local from Canal? Can it get from the express N tracks to the Canal St R local tracks?”
The Canal Street station complex is really a series of connected stations and/or platforms. The Canal Street platforms for the R-train are UNDER Broadway, while the N & Q train Canal Street platforms are Canal Street, and there are passageways that connects these platforms and passageways to the #6 and J/Z lines.
From the uptown point of view, just before the Prince Street local station is a set of track switches between the local and express tracks. From the downtown point of view there is a set of track switches between the local and express tracks. In any case these track switches determine whether trains will be sent over the Manhattan Bridge or further downtown and to Brooklyn via the Montague Street tunnel, unless the train terminates at the Whitehall Street station. Basically “straight railed” the N & Q express trains head directly to/from the Manhattan Bridge, while “straight railed” the R-train and proposed W trains would head to/from the Montague Street Tunnel and Whitehall Street. Of course these track switches exist for both directions.
Basically during the construction of the BRT/BMT Broadway line, the plans changed early 1920’s. Instead of a train line that would have proceeded across Canal Street, and a Broadway local and express route that would have had the City Hall station as a terminal station for the local trains while the lower level express platform and trains continued to Brooklyn on the lower level via the Montague Street
Added wrinkle to the works, further south of the above mentioned track switches about or south of the Prince Street station, there is the second set of track switches between the local and “express” tracks in both directions, as well as between the “express” tracks. These are actually “false express tracks” in that they lead to the lower level platforms of the City Hall station. These tracks are used as layup and storage tracks.
Question – “Could the W not run local from Canal?
Answer – Sure it could, if you mean trains that end their journey on the R-train Canal Street platforms, discharge passengers and use the City Hall trackage to relay trains for the trip uptown and Queens.
Question – Can it get from the express N tracks to the Canal St R local tracks?”
Answer – I believe you’re wondering if a W-train traveling downtown on the express track can be switched to the R-train local track for the R-train Canal Street platform. Yes! It can be done in both directions. This is a question of not whether something can be done, but why?
For example if there were a blockage of some kind on the Manhattan Bridge – N or Q-trains to/from Brooklyn would easily be routed by the Montague Street Tunnel, and after stopping at the R-train Canal Street platform would switched to/from express tracks to restore the N or Q-trains to their usual service pattern.
Another example, many Brooklyn-based riders of the N or Q-trains could easily find their “work locations” to be near one of the R-train local stations in midtown. So instead of having such riders physically transfer between the local and express trains via the passageways at the large Canal Street station – one could have N & Q trains switched to/from the local tracks south of the Prince Street station. Right now this down on the N-train, and during the midnight hours on the Q-train.
What would be a reason to have an express train (say a W-train) whose regular pattern is to skip the midtown local stations – in both directions – get switched to/from the local tracks to make and stop at the “R-train downtown” local stations and possibly terminate at Whitehall Street?
Especially in the midst of N-trains that regularly switch between the local and express tracks in traveling to and from the Manhattan Bridge. In this case the R and Q trains would be “straight-railed” while the proposed W and current N trains would be crossing paths while they use those tracks switches. Can it be done. Yeah – sure. But why?
I’m still wondering why.
Mike
Why? Because it would be better if the N train remained consistent as a local in Manhattan rather than the confusion of the line changing between local and express twice a day, but not on weekends.
The old subway maps, from when the W was running, illustrate the problem. They don’t tell you the essential information of, say, what train to use to get to 28th Street (or any local stop) in Manhattan.
The N and the W are both listed in non-bold meaning “part time service,” which is technically true. But how is one to know to use the W from 6am to 11:30pm (and only Monday through Friday) while the N stops at local stops late nights and on weekends?
The only train listed in bold is the R, which should guarantee it will stop at 28th St. And it does, except when it’s not running late night (1/4 of the time. Of course *we* know the R doesn’t run late nights, but pitty those who don’t, waiting at midnight for the “full time service” train that will never come.
And at the bewitching hour, 11:30pm to 12:30AM, even savvy riders aren’t sure what train to get on. Of course if you see a W-local, take it. But what if an N-train pulls up? It might even be on the local train at 57th street but then running express. This is too much inside-baseball information for the average rider to consider.
A 24/7 N-local prevents this confusion. It may not be the be-all and end-all, but it would be a big advantage.
Peter says:
“The old subway maps, from when the W was running, illustrate the problem. They don’t tell you the essential information of, say, what train to use to get to 28th Street (or any local stop) in Manhattan.”
Mike replies:
Sure they do. If I were on a N or Q train traveling from Brooklyn to Manhattan, I’d change at the 14th Street-Union Square station for the local train. Unless I’m already riding on a local train which would be easily to tell, that train would have stopped at Prince Street or 8th Street.
If I were at 28th Street headed home, and I used the N or Q trains for a direct trip to my home station, I’d have two choices. Take whatever downtown local train appeared at 28th Street to 14th Street-Union Square and then change for the N or Q express trains to Brooklyn. Or I’d take the uptown trains at 28th Street one stop (or walk) to 34th Street-Herald Square and change for the downtown Brooklyn bound express N or Q trains to Brooklyn. Neither method is a huge problem.
———
Peter says:
“The N and the W are both listed in non-bold meaning “part time service,” which is technically true. But how is one to know to use the W from 6am to 11:30pm (and only Monday through Friday) while the N stops at local stops late nights and on weekends?”
Mike replies:
If I lived in Astoria, the train that is heading to Astoria says “Astoria” in its signage, I’d get on it!
Would I really care that the train is an N-train, or a W-train? Nope – it is heading to “Astoria” which is where I want to go. Please! Service to Astoria with in my life-time has been handled by the RR, the QB, the R, the N, the B, the W, the Q, and the W again.
If the train says, Astoria – I’m taking it! Astoria has been and continues to be the 24/7/365 route – the service along Queens Blvd has not always been provided to such a degree.
The “problem” you’ve noted is easily solved every day by multiple thousands of riders.
Mike
Getting to Astoria is never the problem. The problem is getting to local stops in Manhattan and not knowing if the N will stop there.
Peter says:
“Getting to Astoria is never the problem. The problem is getting to local stops in Manhattan and not knowing if the N will stop there.”
Currently on weekday both the N and the Q trains go to Astoria. The N-train is local in Manhattan while the Q-train is express in Manhattan. Riders in Astoria have a choice – a Q-train Manhattan express or an N-train Manhattan local.
After the proposed service change the W-train would make the 4-Manhattan local stops in question, while the N-train skips those four stations. Riders in Astoria will have a choice – the N-train Manhattan express or an W-train Manhattan local. The same choices as now.
Express in Manhattan in this case means skipping of 4 stops – 28th Street, 23rd Street, 8th Street and Prince Street. Long ago the 49th Street station could also be the station that was skipped by an express train.
You would think that these four stations are the most heavily traveled stations in the subway system.
Transit riders simply have be aware of one’s travels. If the N or Q train headed downtown is at the 34th Street station AND on the express track – that train will not be stopping at any of those 4 local stations. If the uptown N or Q train leaving Canal Street does not stop at Prince Street – it will not be stopping at any of the other 4 local stations. When one learns their transit line – many of these “issues” become much easier to deal with.
Mike
The big problem with keeping the N as the 24/7 Broadway Local and running the reinstated weekdays-only W as the Broadway Express is that the W would be “locked in” to going to Brooklyn via the Manhattan Bridge. Switching the W to the local track at Prince St to terminate at Whitehall is pointless. It would defeat the purpose of reinstating the W, which – in no small part – is to clear up weekday congestion caused by the current N switching from local to express there. And the N would either have to run to/from Brooklyn via the Montague Tunnel or terminate at Whitehall.
That presents two scenarios, neither of which is particularly good. If the N runs via tunnel 24/7 it can still serve the Sea Beach Line 24/7. But you also have the W coming into Brooklyn over the Bridge. Where in Brooklyn would you run the W where you wouldn’t be duplicating another service (B, D, N, Q or R)?
Or you terminate the N at Whitehall. With the N out of Brooklyn, something’s going to have to take its place on the 4th Ave/Sea Beach tracks. Probably the W, but now you have to run the W 24/7, which would make it the new N. The MTA isn’t going to run both the N and W 24/7. If the N is turning at Whitehall, that makes it the “weekday extra” service, so the W will be forced to replace the N as the local in Manhattan on weekends. And now we’re back to your original issue with confusion over having the N be express on weekdays and local on weekends, only now it’s the W instead of the N. Same problem, different letter.
Oh boy. I now won’t be able to board a W train without hearing Bert singing.
A missed chance to make the W Astoria-Bay Ridge and the R Forest Hills-Whitehall.
It would massively increase reliability and make you more popular in Bay Ridge without alienating QBL riders (the majority of them don’t ride it all the way into Brooklyn)
An Astoria-Bay Ridge service existed before 1987. Its northern terminal was switched to Continental Av because there is no direct yard access on either end of a Astoria-Bay Ridge route.
The Astoria-Whitehall W will also have no direct access to a maintenance yard at either end of the route. It will have to deadhead to/from Coney Island. Presumably, that’s what an Astoria-Bay Ridge W service would do as well, although that sort of thing seems to be more tolerable to the MTA if the route runs part time. I suppose you could get away with running the W between Astoria and Bay Ridge weekdays only, but if the R were to terminate at Whitehall, something would have to replace it for weekend and overnight hours. I’ve suggested the J, only to get a lukewarm reception to that idea.
I agree with Peter’s simple question about having a simplified service pattern for the N and the W. I take on board the operational arguments but I side with riders. All too often it is impossible to know what train to take, especially at the 11pm witching hour when lines all over the system switch between express and local service patterns. Customer information is dreadful and opaque. Just today I was on a 1 that ran express between 42nd and 96th. No announcement was heard in my car but the doorways were jammed with people watching their stations blow past. At 96, everyone got off, not knowing whether they were on a 1 or 2 or 3 (it was a 1 after all). No announcements were made to help the masses.
If don’t understand that the N runs express on weekdays then you should be check
Ha! I posted that Sesame Street video on your FB post as a comment. Nice to see it end up here!