The day job’s kept me busy lately, and I haven’t had an opportunity to do a proper post. The tabs are piling up though so let’s dive in.
Quieting the Q Train
While the BMT Astoria Line has snaked through Queens since 1917, residents have become to grumble about the noise. Reportedly, the brakes on the new rolling stock in use on the N and Q trains are louder than previous generations even as the rides overall are quieter. After determining that the brakes added 10 decibels to the area’s sound levels, the MTA will install sound dampeners on Astoria-bound trains.
City Councilman Peter Vallone Jr. was the pol behind the push. “This deafening noise has been scaring little kids, startling our senior citizens and damaging our eardrums for far too long,” Vallone said last week, seemingly without a hint of irony.
A Jackson Heights pizza shop opens, finally
It’s been two years since Famous Famiglia won the bidding to operate a pizza parlor in the 3000-square foot space available in the Jackson Heights subway station, and now the slices are ready to go. After years of stops and starts due to construction designs and various requirements imposed by law and the MTA, Famous Famiglia opened this week with a ribbon cutting. The space had been empty for years, and Famiglia will pay the MTA at least $2.6 million over the next 20 years.
Miscellanea
The NYPD is cracking down on subway panhandling…Despite eying a costly PATH extension to Newark Airport, the Port Authority isn’t very interested in a one-seat ride to JFK right now…Speaking of Port Authority, it’s a real mess there right now…Federal commuter benefits are set to decrease to $130 per month at the end of the year while parking subsidies are going up to $250…More later.
21 comments
I wholly support the panhandler crackdown. The same cops should also be going after the dancers and the illegal performers and the preachers, though. Not just warnings, citations.
There’s a couple of “musical” groups that ride the (7) back and forth between GCT and HPA. The BMT Broadway Line in Manhattan has a lot too (I got three separate ones on just one train between QBP and TSQ!)
I’ve herd a few of those groups & some aren’t bad at all, but it’s the panhandlers & especially the preachers that anoy me.
No thanks. Not everything needs to be solved by sending unempathetic meatheads with guns to write tickets, cop feels, and make arrests. In fact, that is a recipe for disaster.
I have seen more cockroaches and rats in the Jackson Heights subway station than any other.
Bon Appetit!
Don’t think I’ll be buying a slice there, but the pizza is actually good.
Given the garbage and rat problems that already exist, selling food inside a station does not seem to be a move in the right direction.
Curious – is there some type of product that can be put under the elevated lines to dampen the noise? Or is it just the fact of steel on steel. when you think about it, the l’s in Chicago are even worse in some places as they litterally run in tight spaces abutting residential buildings as aposed to airiel structures. Neither is pleasant, but it’s a function of living in a dence urban area.
Makes me think of this scene from the Blues Brothers:
The J train in Brooklyn is super loud when a train passes. It sounds like most of the noise isn’t the actual train, but the structure moving and banging. Would be nice if they could soften that too.
yes…………concrete.
Also track on top of a traditional gravel bed as opposed to track on wooden ties on steel which is then supported by more steel is most likely quieter as well.
The JFK Airtrain runs through builds with but a woosh. Yes modern concrete el’s can be improvement.
How many blocks in each direction really suffer from decreased values due to current el noise levels?
Would the increase in real estate values justify the replacement of any of the current remaining els? Can special zones be set up where proceeds from the increased real estate taxes and and increased r/e transfer taxes go toward paying back the construction bonds?
Would replacing the metal on metal 2 and then 3 track Jamaica el with a modern 4 track concrete structure be a fair quality of life trade off of the the nearby locals while providing an express alternate subway service for the over capacity Queens Blvd line.
What are the long term costs of maintaining these metal on metal eyesores vs interest and maintenance cost of new/replacement construction?
Could center pylon construction through the current center track area of the el with tracks built at level above the current tracks allowing for continued train operation until the new tracks are completed? Alternately could the structure be built as a 2 over 2, with the upper tracks and temporary stations coming into service and then removing the current structure and adding on the lower level tracks and permanent stations?
How much benefit (train speed, construction costs, and less people living near the el) would there be by replacing the Crescent street turn to Fulton with a straight run along Jamaica as the J trains goes toward East NY.
I feel that center pylons are visually more pleasing and can be incorporated into a center median thus removing the traffic hazards of the the current metal supports between the traffic and parking lanes.
I am not advocating anything, but do wonder what the true costs and benefits are, and what about the logistics. Els were knocked down with or without thoughts of eventual subway replacement. Given that tunneling costs have made this unrealistic in all but special cases, is a real replacement policy to these 100 year old structure merited?
Peter Vallone’s dad blocked an extension of the Astoria el to LaGuardia over the noise/disruptiveness issue, so my guess is it wouldn’t matter if you took Pete Jr. on a special trip on the WMATA Silver line to Dulles to show him the noise difference of its concrete roadbed and structure through Tyson’s Corner — he’d balk at replacing the el with anything else but a subway line, and pols in other parts of the city with el limes would likely take the same position.
Their attitude would be putting in a quieter concrete structure would assure the el’s existence for another 100-125 years and they’re not going to let that happen, even if you told them the cost of a replacement el would be 20 percent the cost of a replacement subway.
The historical record on the success of replacing an operating elevated train line with a direct under the same streets subway line in New York City is not great. A timely construction of the subway line, while the elevated line remained in operation has really only been done in two places – on Sixth Avenue (replacement of the IRT Sixth Avenue elevated line with the IND Sixth Avenue subway), on Fulton Street in Brooklyn – (replacement of the BRT Fulton Street elevated line with IND Fulton Street used by todays A and C trains).
We should also note that the building of the IND’s Eighth Avenue line in Manhattan and Harlem in the late 1920s, with it’s connections in the Bronx, and it’s Sixth Avenue extension was a replacement for the IRT’s Ninth Avenue and the IRT Sixth Avenue elevated lines in the early 1930’s. While the Eighth Avenue line it is not a direct “same street replacement” and really a “one block over replacement” – the same basic goal was achieved. The IND’s Second System of routes (never built due to the Great Depression) also proposed extending subway service to other areas of the city without transit, and also proposed the direct removal and replacement of some elevated lines.
I should note that the removal of elevated lines and their replacement by bus lines, has not always been a unified success. I make note of the Third Avenue El removal in the Bronx, with a replacement by the B55 bus in the 1970’s. There was also replacement of a segment of the J-line in Jamaica, Queens by bus in the 1970’s and 1980’s. The replacement of the Myrtle Avenue EL in Brooklyn, and the Lexington Avenue EL in Brooklyn by a series of bus routes. On Staten Island, the replacement of the North Shore railroad line by the Richmond Terrace trolley and later S40 bus line. Even as some transit fans call for the rebuilding of the North Shore railroad – the various changes that have occurred on the island, the changes in the usage of land over the decades, and the sheer cost of new railroad construction ensures the replacement of the railroad is not gonna happen anytime soon.
From the late 1880’s to the early 1940’s, was the period when the majority of the rail transportation in the region was built. As I have said before most of the changes in public rail transit has been conversions and the removal of transit, and much less the building of new rail transit. Generally, if it was not built by 1940, the chances of it being built are slim.
Needless to say, but I’m gonna say it anyway – the replacement of the IRT Second and Third Avenue elevated lines in Manhattan with a new subway line traveling the full-length of Manhattan simply has not happened yet, with major doubts about a full-length line ever being built. Many transit fans call the planned opening of three stations under Second Avenue for use by the Q-train, the “Stubway” for a good reason, while the new stations and new rails will be welcomed, the achievement would still be so much less than what was envisioned in the late 1960’s, when the entire set of routes in Manhattan, Queens and the Bronx were originally planned.
One example of that within recent memory is the replacement of the J-train in Jamaica, Queens by a subway line – the Archer Avenue subway – an action that took a very long time considering that the MTA had to be forced to open and use the already built and completed Archer Avenue about five years after those lines and stations had been built. Stations once opened received heavy ridership and continue to serve several needs. However the plans for the further extension of the E-train and J-train into southern-eastern Queens have yet to become more than a conceptual idea, given the history of the entire plans for new lines – as listed within the NYC’s first Master Plan of the 1970’s. For example, the 63rd Street tunnel was derided for years as the “tunnel to nowhere”, with its lower level slated for usage for the LIRR’s East-side access project, several decades after the building of the tunnel in the 1970’s. In short, NIMBY issues, institutional and turf issues, political obstruction, funding problems, changed priorities and leadership, and more could be cited as the reasons for what exists, and what does not exist today.
Needless to say – the issue of cost is the supreme issue. New railroad whether elevated or subway construction simply costs a huge, Huge, HUGE amount of money! Recently I watched a video from the 1950’s by the NY Transit Authority where they talked about the construction of new subway lines at #5 million per mile, and I laughed. In the 1980’s – the cost of new subway construction was at the $100 million per mile mark. As my instructor at the time – remarked once the cost went above the #100 million per mile mark – whole decisions about the building the new transit lines take place – toward the not building of new transit lines. Of course, the cost of new subway construction is well past that mark. Transportation policy is about money as clearly explained in class at the time, meaning the need for plenty of money. There’s discussion about extending the PATH trains in New Jersey to Newark Airport, where first it was announced that the cost would about 1.5 billion, and within days that estimate was revised to #2.5 billion!
(There are folks who just can not stop talking about the huge costs of building or rebuilding the new South Ferry Terminal, the new PATH World Trade Center station and head-house, let alone the costs of rebuilding the entire World Trade Center complex of buildings, the costs of the new three new stations on the Second Avenue Stubway, the costs of the Fulton Transit Center, the costs for the second phase of the Second Avenue subway line in East Harlem, as well as the costs for new transit project. While money does not grow on trees, it is simply transportation 101 – all new transportation costs money, huge amounts of money. Nothing gets built with “pocket change”.)
The record of replacing functioning elevated lines with new subway lines has on balance have not been a good one. The best cases are those where the replacing subway line is built BEFORE the elevated line is removed. In all cases where the elevated line has been removed BEFORE the new replacement subway line has been built – without question there is an extremely long time for the new subway line to be built, or the new subway line is never built at all! The proof of this is the history noted above. These days, the sheer cost of new subway and railroad construction means that few proposals will ever get off the ground through the various hurdles from conception to actual construction, let alone actual rider usage.
Just keeping it real. What is being proposed – the replacement of functioning elevated lines with subway lines or newly built concrete structure elevated lines – is not gonna happen!
Mike
I can’t wait for Vallone to go away
Sheldon Silver needs to go as well? He’s been assembly speaker for what 60 years?
Why is the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Jamaica to Flatbush line not being converted to subway use after ESA opens? (Apparently all LIRR through service will to Penn or Grand Central)
*LIRR (FRA) operations are more expensive
*LIRR is less frequent
*LIRR is out of the mindset of most city residents to it’s not inclusion in the subway become a mental barrier even if the fare structure was in line with subway
*It does not appear that it has vital resources needed by the rest of the LIRR that would hamper it’s total severance from the LIRR
Even if operated over it’s existing tracks with no connections, subway service would be far superior.
Could the line operate only to East NY with tracks then connecting it to the Broadway line over the Willy B. East NY to Atlantic Yards could be eliminated including the removal of the ugly elevated portion that create a dangerous and awkward center 2 lane carriageway which is used only for left turns.
Could the Jamaica Ave el then be torn down east of the East NY, it not use it just for local service.
How much faster would the trip from jamaica to downtown be under such a configuration compared to the existing local with the slow crescent street curves.?
Because, without a link to lower Manhattan and Hoboken, the stub line is simply the Brooklyn version of LIC station.
The Jamaica- Flatbush LIRR line looks like it would be largely a duplication of A or C service for Brooklyn and Queens residents, with way fewer stops.
And if you add stops and require a transfer to the subway, the current LIRR riders to Flatbush won’t like that.
Don’t see much bang for this buck.
Don’t most of them have to transfer anyway…to a rather infrequent service?
I think it’s good for Downtown Brooklyn to have a real rail link to the rest of Long Island. With the Barclays Center, BAM, LIU, etc., Brooklyn acts as a quasi entertainment/educational center for the island. Not to mention Long Island’s hockey team is also moving in soon.
Could you provide some context for the remark on irony?