Second Ave. Sagas

Ahead of 2nd Ave. Subway opening, MTA officially set to restore W service to Astoria

Written by

Benjamin Kabak

in

,

Don’t call it a comeback, but six years after getting unceremoniously dumped by a cash-starved MTA, the W train will make its triumphant return this fall, the MTA announced today. As part of the plan to maintain current subway service levels for Astoria once the Second Ave. Subway opens and the Q is diverted to the Upper East Side, the agency will restore the W train in a few months, before the Second Ave. Subway opens, effectively replacing the Q in Astoria. It’s a clear sign the opening of the Second Ave. Subway is drawing nearer and a welcome development for Astoria residents and businesses who were worried about the fate of their neighborhood’s subway service.

As of now, the MTA plans to restore this service ahead of the opening of the Second Ave. Subway so that the diversion of the Q to the Upper East Side is a seamless one, and while rumors of delays have swirled for months, the MTA still plans to open the Second Ave. Subway by year’s end. Along with the re-introduction of the W train, the BMT service patterns will revert back to their old configuration as follows:

  • W trains will make all local stops between Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard and Whitehall St. during weekdays. There will be no W service on weekends or late nights (which is in line with current Q service to Astoria).
  • N trains will run express in Manhattan between 34th St. – Herald Square and Canal St. on weekdays. N trains will run local on weekends and late nights.
  • Q trains will continue to run local in Brooklyn and express in Manhattan to 57th St./7th Ave. until the Second Ave. Subway opens, and then, Q trains will run to 96th St./2nd Ave. with additional stops at Lexington Ave./63rd St., 72nd St./2nd Ave. and 86th St./2nd Ave. The Q will not stop at 49th St.
  • R train service will be unchanged.

As the MTA notes in a release touting the news, “The changes, including the restoration of the W, maintain service frequency and loading guidelines for customers in Astoria and avoid significant deviations from current service that might confuse customers on those affected lines. Customers on the Broadway Line will also benefit from an increase in choices for express and local service in Manhattan.” The agency plans to hold a hearing on the new service patterns this spring, and the service additions, including operating the Q to Second Ave. and restoring the W, will cost around $13.7 million annually.

The good news here is for Astoria riders who were quite concerned with the planned diversion of the Q train. The MTA had stated its commitment to maintain service levels, and today’s news fulfills that promise. By restarting the W a few months before the Second Ave. Subway opens, operations will be seamless, and new signage will be in place throughout the system. (Never mind the reality that, just a few months ago, the MTA removed the last vestiges of the W train from strip maps on the 1.)

The bad news, if you want to call it that, concerns the W’s southern terminus. By ending the train at Whitehall St., the W does little for Brooklyn R train riders who have complained about unreliable service, long headways and crowded trains. Even some rush hour W service into Brooklyn would have been welcome, but that’s a battle riders can keep fighting. With W trains restored, the opportunity for those riders to make their case is stronger. Overall, though, this news is an expected and welcome development as the city inches closer to opening the Second Ave. Subway, 90 years in the making.

For those curious, the MTA’s press release on the W train and the latest on progress on the Second Ave. Subway is available here on the agency’s website.

Comments

73 responses to “Ahead of 2nd Ave. Subway opening, MTA officially set to restore W service to Astoria”

  1. Sam Goetz

    Will it run into Brooklyn? If so does it run with the R increasing R train service (please please please be the case) or will it run on the Q line?

    Reply
    1. John

      Sometimes it helps to read Ben’s posts before commenting. No, the current plan is for the W to terminate at Whitehall Street.

      Reply
      1. Imogen

        Sometimes when a story breaks, details are added after the article is published.

        Reply
      2. Riverduckexpress

        Sam Goetz posted his comment before Ben updated his article with more details. No need to be rude…

        Reply
      3. Brian Howald

        It’s really unfortunate that there is no place to turn around trains south of Pacific Street. When Manhattan/Queens trains terminate at Whitehall Street, they miss out on an enormous number of transfers available at the next three stops in Brooklyn.

        Reply
        1. Brooklynite

          For what it’s worth, there is Prospect Park…

          Reply
        2. Mike M.

          Ninth Avenue

          Reply
        3. David M.

          I believe that there are diamond crossovers at both IND and BMT tracks south of the Atlantic Avenue/Barclays Ctr stations in Brooklyn.

          Reply
          1. Brooklynite

            There is no IND station at Atlantic/Barclays. The Brighton platform does not have crossovers, and while the IRT and 4th Av platforms do there is simply too much service for trains to be reversed on a regular basis.

            Reply
    2. james

      nope. Q runs to brighton but W wont run in BK

      Reply
  2. Tim

    Is this the cause of that rumor that there may not be enough rolling stock to go around?

    Reply
  3. Demetria

    Good news for Astoria riders – same level (hopefully) of local/express service, but now a direct (albeit slow) one seat ride to Lower Manhattan. Does anyone know how long it takes to turn a train at Whitehall?

    Any idea what rolling stock will be used?

    Reply
    1. Michael549

      “Does anyone know how long it takes to turn a train at Whitehall?”

      Basically not any time more than at a similar stub-end terminal, except in this case there are no bumpers. There is a middle track that can be reached from either direction – Manhattan-bound or Brooklyn-bound – with platforms on both sides of the train.

      The “terminating train” simply pulls into the middle track of the station, the train operator goes to the back end of the train and prepares the train to leave, and the conductor handles the door controls -first on one side, then the other side. When the track switch has been set by the tower dispatcher and the train is given indication to leave, it does.

      The terminating of trains at Whitehall Street has been done for decades, there are no special issues or “problems” with this procedure.

      Mike

      Reply
  4. ADN

    Help me: Why do we call it “rolling stock” instead of just saying something like, “train cars?”

    Reply
    1. Roy

      It’s old-school railway terminology for “rail vehicles”, dating back to 1853 apparently. On a mainline railway, the rolling stock for a passenger service might consist of locomotives with passenger cars or self-contained trainsets like the Acela. On the subway, it’s just sets of train cars.

      Reply
  5. Robert

    Thats good that the MTA is bringing back the W line after a 6 year hiatus I like to see remain put.

    Reply
  6. Speaker Light

    Can you post the actual news release?

    Reply
    1. Benjamin Kabak

      It’s not been posted on the MTA’s website yet, but I’ll add a link to the comments here when it is. Are there any questions you have in particular?

      Reply
    2. Benjamin Kabak

      Here’s the press release.

      Reply
      1. Shaul Picker

        there still will be the first three trains that come from the Sea Beach in the morning and terminating there at night.

        Reply
        1. Alex Morales

          Those trips will be “put-ins” and “lay-ups” from the Coney Island Yard. A put in Is a train put In to service from the yard and a lay up is a train from service to the yard. I expect either r-46s or r-68s to run on the W.

          Reply
          1. Brooklynite

            It’s likely that the W will run 160s, for ease of changing to/from Ns at Ditmars.

            Reply
  7. Brooklynite

    To everyone asking about sending the W to Brooklyn, there is a shortage of rolling stock at the moment, which will only get worse after SAS opens and the L tunnel is closed.

    I assume the Q will continue to run local on Broadway overnight?

    Reply
    1. aestrivex

      The pre-service cuts NQRW service pattern suggests that’s unlikely, although I’m not sure why. I believed that the Q needed to skip 49th street in order to turn at 57th, but I looked at the track maps just now and they suggest that this isn’t the case as there are local/express crossovers just before 57th. Does anyone know why this service pattern has historically existed?

      Reply
      1. Shaul Picker

        due to its high usage. There is a switch north of 57th that the N could use instead of stopping at 49th

        Reply
        1. GEORGE EVANS

          That’s what SHOULD be done. Also, the W should run weekends as well. N service could then continue to run express in Manhattan between 57th ST and Canal Street. Late nights, N and Q can handle Manhattan local service.

          Reply
          1. Chris

            Question why the N train still to be stopped at W49th street if you have a R and W trains serves on local tracks. Should be along with the Q train skipped W49th Street.

            Reply
      2. Bgriff

        I imagine the Q will continue to serve the local stations overnight as it currently does while terminating at 57/7. The Q used to run express overnight until a few years back it was decided that the level of demand at the local stations late nights warranted running on the local track, and the W train won’t run overnight so the Q will still need to serve that demand.

        Reply
      3. Brooklynite

        Trains to Astoria serve 49th because of its heavy ridership. Trains turning at 57th stop at 49th if they’re on the local track and skip 49th if they’re on the express. It’s not worth it to switch at 34th and then switch again two stops later.

        Reply
    2. BruceNY

      Being that there’s a shortage, I say Long Live the R-32!

      I do hope that when 2nd Ave. opens that they’ll fix the signals on the northbound express track between 42nd and 57th so that all trains can move faster than a crawl as they do now (even if they’re pulling into the n/b platform).

      Reply
  8. Shaul Picker

    They should really take advantage of this and have some W trains either run via the Sea Beach Line or the West End Line. The ideal route would have it run to Bay Ridge, but like the problem withe R until 1987, it would mean that it would have no terminal access. Using the walled off portion of the Fourth Avenue Line past 95th Street for a yard as it was intended would do the trick. I learned about this area from tunnelrat.

    Reply
    1. Subutay Musluoglu

      While it was indeed originally planned, there is currently no yard south of 95th Street on the 4th Avenue Line. Nothing behind that wall except dirt and rock. You have been misinformed.

      Reply
  9. 22r

    Sorry to be an NYC n00b, but a map would have been helpful here. Can someone explain what the differene is between this and the current NQ service?

    Reply
    1. Shaul Picker

      The reverse of this
      Map

      Reply
    2. Riverduckexpress

      You know how currently on weekdays the Q runs express between Canal St and 34 St, and then it runs local to Astoria? After the service changes happen, the N will do on weekdays.

      You know how currently on weekends the Q runs express to 57 St and terminates there? The Q will also do that on weekdays after the service changes happen. Once the Second Avenue Subway opens, the Q will be extended to run to 96 St.

      So the N train on weekdays will become an express after the service changes happen. The W train will be a local route just like the N train is now. It’ll start at Astoria, run local to Canal St, and then follow the R train to Whitehall St, where it will terminate. The W will only run on weekdays. On weekends the W will not run, and the N and Q will basically operate the same as they do know.

      Here is an old subway map from 2009 that shows this same service pattern: https://web.archive.org/web/20090313151152/http://mta.info/nyct/maps/subwaymap.pdf (the link is a PDF)

      Reply
  10. Vernon

    The W will probably use R160s because they’ll probably do equipment swaps like they currently do with the N and Q in Astoria.

    Reply
  11. Leonid

    I think they should send the W though Montague Street tunnel, down 4th Ave to Bay Parkway on West End, at least for the 3 years that they are redoing Sea Beach. It adds service and options for the stranded N train riders.

    Reply
    1. Brooklynite

      Leaving the car shortage aside for a minute, IIRC the D has not been crowded enough since the N rehab started to warrant an extra service via West End.

      Reply
      1. Brookl

        Anecdotally, D ridership doesn’t seem to have been affected much at all since the rehab started.

        Reply
  12. Rob

    What’s the advantage of this proposed arrangement vs. leaving Astoria service as is, and sending the W up 2nd Av?

    Thanks.

    Reply
    1. Max

      Hmm good question. I guess so people on the UES can be on the express Q through Manhattan, instead of the local W? That way both Astoria and the UES have an express train (N and Q)

      Reply
      1. Brooklynite

        The Q comes off the Manhattan Bridge, ending up on the express tracks which run into 2nd Av. The W, originating at Whitehall, has a straight-railed path to the local tracks.

        Reply
    2. Tower18

      Because 2nd Avenue tracks connect with the Broadway Express tracks. Sending the Q to Astoria and the W to 2nd Avenue would require a bunch of moves and/or service changes.

      Reply
    3. Riverduckexpress

      The Broadway Line express tracks connect directly to the 63rd St Line. The Broadway Line local tracks do not. So by having the Q go up 2nd Ave and the W go to Astoria, both services can remain on the same track without switching.

      Reply
      1. Shaul Picker

        even better, the N could also run to 96th with its headway cut slightly, and the Ws TPH would go up to 13 TPH to serve Astoria and the Sea Beach Line. Takes away switching at 34th.

        Reply
        1. ajedrez

          The problem is you overserve Sea Beach in the reverse-peak direction.

          Reply
          1. Richard

            Not if 2nd AV TPH is split evenly between the N and Q. Then you wouldn’t be over serving anything

            Reply
    4. Herb Lehman

      They can’t run the W along 2nd Avenue, at least not if Whitehall Street is the southern terminal, because Whitehall St has only historically been able to turn about six trains per hour (there’s a single track used to terminate trains).

      Unless the MTA has figured something out this go-round, this is actually kind of a problem because it basically means a reduction in service for Astoria riders, too (if W trains only run every 10 minutes vs. Q trains running every 6-8 minutes).

      Reply
      1. Brooklynite

        The old timetable (http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/twcur.pdf) indicates that during the rush the W ran every 7-8 minutes.

        For what it’s worth, the 4 train at Utica turns 15tph on a single track. 6tph can’t be the limit at Whitehall.

        Reply
        1. Herb Lehman

          I counted the number of trains per hour on that schedule provided in the link. Even during rush hour, it was 6 trains per hour.

          There were some 7 minute headways in there, but for the most part the W ran on 10 minute headways with a bunch of 12 and 13 minute gaps thrown in. Maybe it will be different this time. Or maybe the MTA will bump up the number of N trains to make up for the lack of W trains.

          Reply
  13. R.V.

    I assume the Q train has to terminate at 57th because they can’t turn back around efficiently at 63rd?

    I only ask because it seems odd to me that they couldn’t open 63rd earlier since that station is essentially done and give riders another option going downtown.

    Reply
    1. David M.

      It could be short run at 63 St, but it’s more practical to terminate at 57 St because 57 St is an express station and can easily switch to the correct track heading back downtown.

      Reply
      1. Brooklynite

        The tracks at 63rd are on two different levels because of the cross-platform transfer to the F train. It might be possible to empty the trains at 63rd/Lex and relay them via the unopened 72nd St, but that’s a hassle.

        Reply
  14. Spendmor Wastemor

    I’m not an expert, but isn’t there an advantage in having the W turn at Whitehall? Some northbound R trains could also be short-turned at/near Whitehall, giving that line more evenly spaced trains.

    Reply
  15. David M.

    The writer made a slight mistake. The MTA recently removed the W bullet from the 2 subway service, not the 1 — as the 2 are the the service that have newer train cars with those strip maps in their cars.

    Reply
    1. Benjamin Kabak

      The writer didn’t make a mistake as the stick strip maps in the 1 train were what this writer was referring to! The 2 train strip maps were a different beast, and they were changed long ago.

      Reply
      1. Chris

        Does the N train will skip W49th Street along the Q train upon completion of second avenue subway when the R and W train serves on local tracks; if they do that it’s better?

        Reply
        1. Brooklynite

          The N will stop at 49th Street at all times because of heavy ridership there.

          Reply
      2. Chris

        Has anybody heard this before: This is what they says according from straphanger website for the future extension SAS if will happen the Phase 2 to 125th Street Harlem; This is very smooth efficient service.

        Actually, the plan belongs to Broadway Lion from Subchat. Nevertheless, it’s a plan with few cons.
        This plan will only work if the first two phases (though only Phase I can work) of the SAS are opened.

        Rush Hour Service
        (N) 125th Street to Coney Island
        via Broadway Exp. and Sea Beach
        (same route, but after 57th the route goes uptown)
        Runs every 6 minutes, or 10TPH
        (currently runs every 7 minutes, 8 in the PM)

        (Q) 125th Street to Coney Island
        via Broadway Exp. and Brighton Lcl.
        (this is the proposed route of the Q currently)
        Runs every 5 minutes, or 12TPH
        (currently runs every 6 minutes)

        (R) Forest Hills to Bay Ridge
        via current route
        Runs every 6 minutes, or 10TPH (current headway)

        (W) Ditmars Blvd. to Whitehall St.
        Alternate trains continue to 9th Ave., Brooklyn
        Runs every 5 minutes, or 12TPH

        Explanation (scroll to bottom if too confusing or too lazy to read)
        First, you may be thinking that I’m changing quite a few routes. Really, I’m not. This is really all I’m changing: The N goes to 125th instead of Astoria, and some W trains continue to 9th Ave.
        What is wrong with this guy? He wants to change the N’s terminal and leave Astoria with the W? The answer is yes. W service will be added so that Astoria riders get the same level of service as they do now with both the N and the W.
        Let me say it like this: The goal of this plan is to have as few merges on the Broadway line as possible for maximized service.
        Let me show you why this plan works in terms of track capacity. If you notice, I’m not decreasing service on any line either or removing service (Astoria line riders lose the N but get double the W).
        Max track capacity is 30TPH. For the sake of incorporating outside forces, max capacity is 24TPH.
        Now, the W will run 12TPH along Astoria, which will merge with 10TPH in the 60th St. tunnel. That’s 22 TPH all along the Broadway local until Whitehall Street, with no other merges. 22 < 24. Whitehall st. can turn about 6TPH (current W train TPH), so the other 6 W trains continue to 9th Ave. in Brooklyn on the West End. 6TPH can hardly interfere with other operations in Brooklyn. Montague tunnel traffic will be 12 TPH. 12 < 24.

        Now for the Broadway Express. Both the N and Q start at 125. N has 10 TPH, Q has 12TPH. 22 < 24. 22TPH all along the Broadway Express in Manhattan and into Brooklyn. At this point I should mention that if you don't know already, SAS is being planned with CBTC. Let's boost the SAS segment capacity to 34TPH because now we can. Optimal CBTC track capacity is 40TPH. However, service remains 22TPH.

        Why This Plan Works
        "Riders will be too confused if their W goes to Brooklyn or not. Riders in Brookyln will wait too long for a W."
        Mind you, this is EXACTLY what the MTA is planning for extending the Q in Queens to replace the W. Q trains run to Astoria every 12 minutes, when normal headway terminating at 57th is 6 mins. Also, riders can just take the R along 4th Ave. in Brookyln.

        "Astoria Riders lose their one-seat express in Broadway."
        One of the great things about this system is that good local service often appeals to riders better than express service every 10 minutes.

        "I'm confused. This plan is too confusing."
        The only things changing are that the N changes terminals to 125th St. and some W trains go to 9th Ave. The only three merges in the VICINITY are DeKalb Ave, 60th St., and Second Ave. with the T and the N/Q. None of them are problems and are under the max track capacity.

        "What about CBTC?"
        Since the SAS will be all CBTC, and there are no merges in Manhattan on the Bway Exp., CBTC can be equipped on the Bway Exp. until Brooklyn.

        IF YOU'RE CONFUSED
        Max track capacity = 24TPH
        Broadway Local track capacity under this plan: 22TPH
        Express track capacity: 22 TPH
        MINIMUM MERGES

        What does everyone think? BTW, sorry for the long post.
        EDIT- BTW, during all other times the W runs to Whitehall St. only since the decreased TPH during all other times means that all trains can be turned at Whitehall.
        Reply

        Reply
    2. Jeff

      The older R62s/R62As have sticker maps on them too.

      Reply
  16. SEAN

    This is so timely – enjoy.

    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..8;h=315%5D

    Reply
  17. Chris

    Does the N train will skip W49th Street upon completion of second avenue subway when the R and W train serves on local tracks; if they do that it’s better?

    Reply
    1. bigbellymon4

      The N train can skip the stop northbound, but can’t skip it southbound as there is no “Punch Box” at 5Av-59St. That is the reason why all trains that use the 60th Street tube stop at 49th in both directions.

      Reply
      1. Michael549

        “The N train can skip the stop northbound, but can’t skip it southbound as there is no “Punch Box” at 5Av-59St. That is the reason why all trains that use the 60th Street tube stop at 49th in both directions.”

        There is a set of track switches between the local and express tracks just south of the downtown platform at the 57th Street-Seventh Avenue station that could easily be used to have N-trains skip the 49th Street station.

        Mike

        Reply
        1. bigbellymon4

          “There is a set of track switches between the local and express tracks just south of the downtown platform at the 57th Street-Seventh Avenue station that could easily be used to have N-trains skip the 49th Street station.”

          I’m sorry I forgot to thoroughly explain the role of the “Punch Box”. Yes I know that there are a set of tracks so the southbound N’s can skip 49th, but without the “punch box”, how is the switch operator going to which train is which? You DO NOT want to accidentally switch an R to the exp or keep an N running lcl to Times Sq-42nd. If there was a “punch box” at 5av-59st, then N trains can easily skip 49st as the switch operators would know which train is approaching the switches and how to set the switches accordingly. Unless you are going to stay in constant radio communication with each train from Queensboro / Queens Plzs (N/Q and R respectively) all the way through to 57st-7av (which is definitely going to be a painstaking task), it is just easier to send all trains the came through the 60st tubes down Bway lcl, let them use the “punch box” at Times Sq-42nd with the least amount of confusion.

          Reply
          1. M

            We are spending billions upon billions on a new line and we can’t put in a punch box for a million dollars to maximize benefit?

            Reply
            1. Brooklynite

              We can. That doesn’t necessarily mean we should. 49th is a pretty heavily used stop, so why skip it?

              Reply
              1. BiGTiMsb

                Service from Astoria (AND from the rest of queens if you are transferring from the 7) does not have an express route until you get to 34th St.

                Skipping 49th St. like they used to helps, but it would be a dramatic improvement if the N could go express from Lexington/59th to 42nd St, then on the 34, 14 and Canal.

                This would help anyone going from Queens to lower Manhattan or Brooklyn.

                Is there a physical reason this can’t happen?

                Reply
                1. Chris

                  How about the Second Avenue subway once their open; the Q will goes up to 96th Street; was the N train will skip W49th Street; you have R and W train stops to serves this station. This will the same history since between 2004 and 2010 before.
                  REPLY

                  Reply
              2. Chris

                How about the Second Avenue subway once their open; the Q will goes up to 96th Street; was the N train skip W49th Street; you have R and W train stops to serves this station. This will the same history since between 2004 and 2010.

                Reply
        2. Chris

          This is what they says accoding from straphanger website for the future extension SAS if will happen the Phase 2 to 125th Street Harlem;This is very smooth efficient service.

          Actually, the plan belongs to Broadway Lion from Subchat. Nevertheless, it’s a plan with few cons.
          This plan will only work if the first two phases (though only Phase I can work) of the SAS are opened.

          Rush Hour Service
          (N) 125th Street to Coney Island
          via Broadway Exp. and Sea Beach
          (same route, but after 57th the route goes uptown)
          Runs every 6 minutes, or 10TPH
          (currently runs every 7 minutes, 8 in the PM)

          (Q) 125th Street to Coney Island
          via Broadway Exp. and Brighton Lcl.
          (this is the proposed route of the Q currently)
          Runs every 5 minutes, or 12TPH
          (currently runs every 6 minutes)

          (R) Forest Hills to Bay Ridge
          via current route
          Runs every 6 minutes, or 10TPH (current headway)

          (W) Ditmars Blvd. to Whitehall St.
          Alternate trains continue to 9th Ave., Brooklyn
          Runs every 5 minutes, or 12TPH

          Explanation (scroll to bottom if too confusing or too lazy to read)
          First, you may be thinking that I’m changing quite a few routes. Really, I’m not. This is really all I’m changing: The N goes to 125th instead of Astoria, and some W trains continue to 9th Ave.
          What is wrong with this guy? He wants to change the N’s terminal and leave Astoria with the W? The answer is yes. W service will be added so that Astoria riders get the same level of service as they do now with both the N and the W.
          Let me say it like this: The goal of this plan is to have as few merges on the Broadway line as possible for maximized service.
          Let me show you why this plan works in terms of track capacity. If you notice, I’m not decreasing service on any line either or removing service (Astoria line riders lose the N but get double the W).
          Max track capacity is 30TPH. For the sake of incorporating outside forces, max capacity is 24TPH.
          Now, the W will run 12TPH along Astoria, which will merge with 10TPH in the 60th St. tunnel. That’s 22 TPH all along the Broadway local until Whitehall Street, with no other merges. 22 < 24. Whitehall st. can turn about 6TPH (current W train TPH), so the other 6 W trains continue to 9th Ave. in Brooklyn on the West End. 6TPH can hardly interfere with other operations in Brooklyn. Montague tunnel traffic will be 12 TPH. 12 < 24.

          Now for the Broadway Express. Both the N and Q start at 125. N has 10 TPH, Q has 12TPH. 22 < 24. 22TPH all along the Broadway Express in Manhattan and into Brooklyn. At this point I should mention that if you don't know already, SAS is being planned with CBTC. Let's boost the SAS segment capacity to 34TPH because now we can. Optimal CBTC track capacity is 40TPH. However, service remains 22TPH.

          Why This Plan Works
          "Riders will be too confused if their W goes to Brooklyn or not. Riders in Brookyln will wait too long for a W."
          Mind you, this is EXACTLY what the MTA is planning for extending the Q in Queens to replace the W. Q trains run to Astoria every 12 minutes, when normal headway terminating at 57th is 6 mins. Also, riders can just take the R along 4th Ave. in Brookyln.

          "Astoria Riders lose their one-seat express in Broadway."
          One of the great things about this system is that good local service often appeals to riders better than express service every 10 minutes.

          "I'm confused. This plan is too confusing."
          The only things changing are that the N changes terminals to 125th St. and some W trains go to 9th Ave. The only three merges in the VICINITY are DeKalb Ave, 60th St., and Second Ave. with the T and the N/Q. None of them are problems and are under the max track capacity.

          "What about CBTC?"
          Since the SAS will be all CBTC, and there are no merges in Manhattan on the Bway Exp., CBTC can be equipped on the Bway Exp. until Brooklyn.

          IF YOU'RE CONFUSED
          Max track capacity = 24TPH
          Broadway Local track capacity under this plan: 22TPH
          Express track capacity: 22 TPH
          MINIMUM MERGES

          What does everyone think? BTW, sorry for the long post.
          EDIT- BTW, during all other times the W runs to Whitehall St. only since the decreased TPH during all other times means that all trains can be turned at Whitehall.

          Reply
          1. Jay

            How about W trains running to 9th ave on weekdays and To whitehall st on weekends.

            The N train from Ditmars bvld to coney Island via Broadway exp.

            Q train already run with the T train to 125

            Reply
        3. Chris

          Has anybody heard this before: This is what they says according from straphanger website for the future extension SAS if will happen the Phase 2 to 125th Street Harlem; This is very smooth efficient service.

          Actually, the plan belongs to Broadway Lion from Subchat. Nevertheless, it’s a plan with few cons.
          This plan will only work if the first two phases (though only Phase I can work) of the SAS are opened.

          Rush Hour Service
          (N) 125th Street to Coney Island
          via Broadway Exp. and Sea Beach
          (same route, but after 57th the route goes uptown)
          Runs every 6 minutes, or 10TPH
          (currently runs every 7 minutes, 8 in the PM)

          (Q) 125th Street to Coney Island
          via Broadway Exp. and Brighton Lcl.
          (this is the proposed route of the Q currently)
          Runs every 5 minutes, or 12TPH
          (currently runs every 6 minutes)

          (R) Forest Hills to Bay Ridge
          via current route
          Runs every 6 minutes, or 10TPH (current headway)

          (W) Ditmars Blvd. to Whitehall St.
          Alternate trains continue to 9th Ave., Brooklyn
          Runs every 5 minutes, or 12TPH

          Explanation (scroll to bottom if too confusing or too lazy to read)
          First, you may be thinking that I’m changing quite a few routes. Really, I’m not. This is really all I’m changing: The N goes to 125th instead of Astoria, and some W trains continue to 9th Ave.
          What is wrong with this guy? He wants to change the N’s terminal and leave Astoria with the W? The answer is yes. W service will be added so that Astoria riders get the same level of service as they do now with both the N and the W.
          Let me say it like this: The goal of this plan is to have as few merges on the Broadway line as possible for maximized service.
          Let me show you why this plan works in terms of track capacity. If you notice, I’m not decreasing service on any line either or removing service (Astoria line riders lose the N but get double the W).
          Max track capacity is 30TPH. For the sake of incorporating outside forces, max capacity is 24TPH.
          Now, the W will run 12TPH along Astoria, which will merge with 10TPH in the 60th St. tunnel. That’s 22 TPH all along the Broadway local until Whitehall Street, with no other merges. 22 < 24. Whitehall st. can turn about 6TPH (current W train TPH), so the other 6 W trains continue to 9th Ave. in Brooklyn on the West End. 6TPH can hardly interfere with other operations in Brooklyn. Montague tunnel traffic will be 12 TPH. 12 < 24.

          Now for the Broadway Express. Both the N and Q start at 125. N has 10 TPH, Q has 12TPH. 22 < 24. 22TPH all along the Broadway Express in Manhattan and into Brooklyn. At this point I should mention that if you don't know already, SAS is being planned with CBTC. Let's boost the SAS segment capacity to 34TPH because now we can. Optimal CBTC track capacity is 40TPH. However, service remains 22TPH.

          Why This Plan Works
          "Riders will be too confused if their W goes to Brooklyn or not. Riders in Brookyln will wait too long for a W."
          Mind you, this is EXACTLY what the MTA is planning for extending the Q in Queens to replace the W. Q trains run to Astoria every 12 minutes, when normal headway terminating at 57th is 6 mins. Also, riders can just take the R along 4th Ave. in Brookyln.

          "Astoria Riders lose their one-seat express in Broadway."
          One of the great things about this system is that good local service often appeals to riders better than express service every 10 minutes.

          "I'm confused. This plan is too confusing."
          The only things changing are that the N changes terminals to 125th St. and some W trains go to 9th Ave. The only three merges in the VICINITY are DeKalb Ave, 60th St., and Second Ave. with the T and the N/Q. None of them are problems and are under the max track capacity.

          "What about CBTC?"
          Since the SAS will be all CBTC, and there are no merges in Manhattan on the Bway Exp., CBTC can be equipped on the Bway Exp. until Brooklyn.

          IF YOU'RE CONFUSED
          Max track capacity = 24TPH
          Broadway Local track capacity under this plan: 22TPH
          Express track capacity: 22 TPH
          MINIMUM MERGES

          What does everyone think? BTW, sorry for the long post.
          EDIT- BTW, during all other times the W runs to Whitehall St. only since the decreased TPH during all other times means that all trains can be turned at Whitehall.

          Reply

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